Caveat Emptor.... Livernois Heads (Pic heavy)

[mike@livernois]

Judging by what everyone is saying it gets you a little bit concerned about buying heads with the bronze guides. But after reading what Mike is saying it does make sense for most applications to dissipate heat but it seems to be causing more harm than good in some applications. Would there be a way to make sure this wouldn't happen if you needed Stage 3 heads for a N/A application since you wouldn't need the bronze guides but would require the oversized valves and ported heads?

It's fairly application specific, you can make cast iron (powdered guides) work just fine in a lot of applications with attention to the setup, machine work, seals, etc. The same can be said for bronze guides as well, with the correct setup they can be made to last also and work well in applications that you want to maximize getting rid of heat and keeping the valve from getting to hot.

As an astute member brought to my attention it's also important to note that there are differences between a race only car and a street car. A full out race car might not ever see full temperature at the drag strip, it also most likely will only be under full power for a short period of time. The conditions that take place in this application require different methods and setups because the heat range might be different, meaning that a race car sees a very high temperature for a very short period of time, where as a street car might see a moderate temperature for a very long period of time. Think of a 7 second drag car. It might be lit in the pit and lanes and then run a pass, all of which is less than 8 seconds under full power and maybe less than a couple minutes of engine run time. The parts and components have to be designed different to withstand this extreme temp for a very short period of time. In comparison you might take your 800RWHP engine out and drive it to work back and forth 50 miles, it might sit in traffic jam in a 95 degree day for an hour. It might make a couple of high speed blasts on the freeway. All of these things will produce a different engine scenario that requires a different setup to make it work. In most cases the better the cooling system as a whole is at removing heat from the engine the happier the parts will be. But every application is different and needs to be thought of ahead of time.

Yes, this could be accomplished by specifying that the stock guides are desired in the head build, so essentially just ask for a set of stage 3 heads, but with stock guides. The only thing that needs to be paid attention to is in regards to the stems of the aftermarket valves to ensure the sizing is the same as the stock valves, if they are smaller, ever by a little they might not work with the stock guides because the clearance would be too large
.

Mike/Livernois

So, what is the proper valve to guide clearance for a 700-800 rwhp motor with bronze guides?

This is an area where "proper" is more up to interpretation by the engine builder/cylinder head guy. Everyone has their own method and spec they use, so you could ask 10 cylinder head guys this question and get 10 different answers, the average of those answers though will probably be close though. Also the application in a lot of cases would determine any small tweaks to the clearance. But if you were looking for a range that I would think they would fall into for a 6mm stem I would guess .0006-.0008 Intake and .0012-.0014 Exhaust.

It would be interesting to know what the stem to guide clearance is on the other valves. FWIW, I tear down every aftermarket head that I get into the shop. What I normally see is hour glassing. If the inside of the guide looks like an hourglass, then the guides were honed with way too much over stroke at the top and bottom. Then, when the assembler checks the clearance, it would appear that everything is fine even though the middle of the guide is tight. I see a lot of after market heads with this problem.

Agreed, this is definitely an area where the machine work needs to be right. If the guides are not straight +/- .0001 then they are going to get ugly pretty quick. On a 3 valve with the small guide size and very minimal contact area there is not much support on the valve, so when you hourglass a guide and make that area of support for the valve even smaller it does not take long for the valve to really heavily wear the guide and the clearance to get big quickly. Seems like the best method to prevent this is somebody that is sharp with their honing skills and can keep the guides straight, or with reaming the guides. Both methods require pretty close attention to detail to make sure that you get it right. We've upgraded tooling a couple of times over the years and have to go through a fair amount of training with someone before they can hone guides, the small stem stuff 5mm and 6mm is usually the trickiest to do. Definitely a finesse thing doing it right, I agree 100% on this.

 

[Back@itagain]

That's just an idea though, something I've done in the past on custom things I've built for myself.

Thanks

Any specifics on the Livernois cross section measurements in the CNC program? Being that my cylinder heads are supposed to be a bolt on/off the shelf Livernois product I don't think custom o-rings should be necessary.

I figure it would be easy to resolve right now while the blower and manifold are off the car. Since I'm local, maybe one of the guys from the shop and a micrometer could swing by to verify my measurements.

Thanks

Brian

 

[mike@livernois]

Any specifics on the Livernois cross section measurements in the CNC program? Being that my cylinder heads are supposed to be a bolt on/off the shelf Livernois product I don't think custom o-rings should be necessary.

I figure it would be easy to resolve right now while the blower and manifold are off the car. Since I'm local, maybe one of the guys from the shop and a micrometer could swing by to verify my measurements.

Thanks

Brian

Yeah, by custom I meant based on my experience from doing my own projects, which were often custom and required non-standard parts. That's the only reason I know of finding those alternative o-rings sources, I needed them for a project.

In regards to your heads I have not had a chance to really talk with the head guy and get solid measurements, but he did tell me that the port is built around a stock 3V manifold. Based on this I spoke to Rick and he informed me that the blower cast manifolds sometimes have core shift in them and that can cause the o-ring to get close because the o-ring position on the cast blower manifold is now not in the same location as the stock 3V intake manifold.

Would it be possible to make a quick template of your blower manifold, this can be done by placing something like thin cardboard or even paper over the port and then tapping with a small hammer around all the port edges and bolt holes. Then remove the cardboard or paper and pop out the small sections and you should have a pretty accurate template to go from. We could take that here and overlay it on some heads to try and get a better idea.

Thanks

 

[Back@itagain]

Yeah, by custom I meant based on my experience from doing my own projects, which were often custom and required non-standard parts. That's the only reason I know of finding those alternative o-rings sources, I needed them for a project.

In regards to your heads I have not had a chance to really talk with the head guy and get solid measurements, but he did tell me that the port is built around a stock 3V manifold. Based on this I spoke to Rick and he informed me that the blower cast manifolds sometimes have core shift in them and that can cause the o-ring to get close because the o-ring position on the cast blower manifold is now not in the same location as the stock 3V intake manifold.

Would it be possible to make a quick template of your blower manifold, this can be done by placing something like thin cardboard or even paper over the port and then tapping with a small hammer around all the port edges and bolt holes. Then remove the cardboard or paper and pop out the small sections and you should have a pretty accurate template to go from. We could take that here and overlay it on some heads to try and get a better idea.

Thanks

Not a problem. I should be able to do both the manifold and the heads this weekend so I can bring them by the shop but core shift would explain one end being a little closer to the o-ring than the other. Problem here, if my measurements are correct, is the port has already been cut so large that it is past the inner diameter of the o-ring.

Thanks for addressing my concerns Mike

Brian

 

[Tre06GTP1SC]

After talking to Mike it was decided to send the heads (complete with cams) back to Livernois. The heads should be there Tuesday according to the tracking numbers. They are going to look at them and try to figure why Bronze guides have broken in two different heads. Hopefully get a new set in about a week and a half. Im ready to get this build complete, tuned, and ripping down the track.

I will post updates once I get them.

 

[JEWC_Motorsports]

Ah i see...............subd. Tre i hope they get it fixed.

 

[Tre06GTP1SC]

Ah i see...............subd. Tre i hope they get it fixed.

Me too Brother! I got a big bore stroker with close to 25 psi that is begging to go down the track!

 

[stang06girl]

Hmmmmm .... how similar this thread to one I have on another site!

http://www.modularfords.com/f79/valve-train-carnage-182046/

I have FRPP Hi flow CNC ported heads (repackaged Livernois Stage 3 heads) and am having really similar issues with the guides. one of the number 3 intakes stuck a valve, the rocker came off, came back down on the spring, flipped out one of the keepers, continued moving over, decapitated the exaust valve lash adjuster, which caused the number 4 cylinder lash adjusters to lose pressure, fried the lobes on both number 3 and number 4 cylinders. I was initially at a loss to figure out what was the root cause. The rockers, lash adjusters, and cam were drenched in oil, so I new it wasn't an oil pressure issue. I couldn't find anything that was way out of wack in regards to valve geometry. I finally took the heads down to a local mod motor head shop, and they found that every valve guide (execpt one) was loose in the head. I was one valve keeper away from completely destroying a high dollar big bore stroker The failure occured during break in, never having been under boost, at less than 1100 miles.

 

[Tre06GTP1SC]

Hmmmmm .... how similar this thread to one I have on another site!

http://www.modularfords.com/f79/valve-train-carnage-182046/

I have FRPP Hi flow CNC ported heads (repackaged Livernois Stage 3 heads) and am having really similar issues with the guides. one of the number 3 intakes stuck a valve, the rocker came off, came back down on the spring, flipped out one of the keepers, continued moving over, decapitated the exaust valve lash adjuster, which caused the number 4 cylinder lash adjusters to lose pressure, fried the lobes on both number 3 and number 4 cylinders. I was initially at a loss to figure out what was the root cause. The rockers, lash adjusters, and cam were drenched in oil, so I new it wasn't an oil pressure issue. I couldn't find anything that was way out of wack in regards to valve geometry. I finally took the heads down to a local mod motor head shop, and they found that every valve guide (execpt one) was loose in the head. I was one valve keeper away from completely destroying a high dollar big bore stroker The failure occured during break in, never having been under boost, at less than 1100 miles.

Damn, pics look very similair to my passenger side head failure in post #1. I was told it was a valve guide issue by Livernois, they replaced the head. They got my heads and cams this past tuesday. I expect to hear from Mike with their plan Monday or Tuesday.

Did you have any issues getting them fixed?

 

[Back@itagain]

Sounds like Mike will be a very busy man then. Hopefully he'll have some answers regarding the o-ring issue. Still don't have any answers on the questions about the CNC program. I also made some imprints of the heads and the manifold and overlaid them. For some reason it looks like the port roof is cut more on the passenger side head and the port floor is cut more on the driver side head...it's almost painful to keep looking at these things!

 

[kevinatfms]

Hmmmmm .... how similar this thread to one I have on another site!

http://www.modularfords.com/f79/valve-train-carnage-182046/

I have FRPP Hi flow CNC ported heads (repackaged Livernois Stage 3 heads) and am having really similar issues with the guides. one of the number 3 intakes stuck a valve, the rocker came off, came back down on the spring, flipped out one of the keepers, continued moving over, decapitated the exaust valve lash adjuster, which caused the number 4 cylinder lash adjusters to lose pressure, fried the lobes on both number 3 and number 4 cylinders. I was initially at a loss to figure out what was the root cause. The rockers, lash adjusters, and cam were drenched in oil, so I new it wasn't an oil pressure issue. I couldn't find anything that was way out of wack in regards to valve geometry. I finally took the heads down to a local mod motor head shop, and they found that every valve guide (execpt one) was loose in the head. I was one valve keeper away from completely destroying a high dollar big bore stroker The failure occured during break in, never having been under boost, at less than 1100 miles.

are these the big valve FRPP heads or factory ported? i have the factory ported FRPP heads, they are no longer listed in the FRPP catalog and i have been wondering about them.

i know FRPP had a few designations for the HP cylinder heads for the 3V's. they had the factory heads with ported intake/exhaust ports in 12mm plugs, they have the same as before with 14mm plugs and then the oversized valve heads with 14mm plugs?

if you have the factory port valves can you tell me the casting numbers on the front of the heads? i wanna cross check when mine were made as im afraid im going to end up like one of these one day. although i have almost 30k on mine and no problems so far?!?

 

[ford20]

are these the big valve FRPP heads or factory ported? i have the factory ported FRPP heads, they are no longer listed in the FRPP catalog and i have been wondering about them.

i know FRPP had a few designations for the HP cylinder heads for the 3V's. they had the factory heads with ported intake/exhaust ports in 12mm plugs, they have the same as before with 14mm plugs and then the oversized valve heads with 14mm plugs?

if you have the factory port valves can you tell me the casting numbers on the front of the heads? i wanna cross check when mine were made as im afraid im going to end up like one of these one day. although i have almost 30k on mine and no problems so far?!?

The ones with the bronze guides that she had are the ones with the over sized valves Stage 3 heads ... I think you have the M-6049-N3VPA heads while she has the M-6050-463VP3 heads. I think

 

[Back@itagain]

are these the big valve FRPP heads or factory ported? i have the factory ported FRPP heads, they are no longer listed in the FRPP catalog and i have been wondering about them.

i know FRPP had a few designations for the HP cylinder heads for the 3V's. they had the factory heads with ported intake/exhaust ports in 12mm plugs, they have the same as before with 14mm plugs and then the oversized valve heads with 14mm plugs?

if you have the factory port valves can you tell me the casting numbers on the front of the heads? i wanna cross check when mine were made as im afraid im going to end up like one of these one day. although i have almost 30k on mine and no problems so far?!?

If I remember correctly Roush did some of the CNC work for FRPP for a quick minute but Livernois has been doing the job for quite sometime now.

The ones with the bronze guides that she had are the ones with the over sized valves Stage 3 heads ... I think you have the M-6049-N3VPA heads while she has the M-6050-463VP3 heads. I think

Read through the thread. Im pretty sure it has been posted that Livernois has used the bronze guides in their stage II heads.

 

[kevinatfms]

ok so it sounds like i have the earlier batch of roush heads. im still crossing my fingers but with almost 30k on them im guessing i got a good batch. i bought my heads really early, im guessing sometime around 07 or 08 when the new catalog came out.

hope everything gets worked out.

 

[rojizostang]

so....what's the consensus here?

are bronze guides in general a bad idea for 3v heads?

have we heard any horror stories about bronze guides from other speed shops like modular head shop, or bbr, fox lake or anyone else?

is it only that livernois seems to be affected because the shear volume of heads they turn out?

 

[BruceH]

so....what's the consensus here?

are bronze guides in general a bad idea for 3v heads?

have we heard any horror stories about bronze guides from other speed shops like modular head shop, or bbr, fox lake or anyone else?

is it only that livernois seems to be affected because the shear volume of heads they turn out?

Search a few other mustang sites and you will see that Livernois had this problem. They are well aware of it and have answered posts on other forums about it.

 

[rojizostang]

Search a few other mustang sites and you will see that Livernois had this problem. They are well aware of it and have answered posts on other forums about it.

what? are you serious? go another mustang site? no way.....lol

i really don't hang around any of the other mustang forums, i figure all i need to know can be found out here.

at least you didn't tell me to use the search button here..

 

[Back@itagain]

ok so it sounds like i have the earlier batch of roush heads. im still crossing my fingers but with almost 30k on them im guessing i got a good batch. i bought my heads really early, im guessing sometime around 07 or 08 when the new catalog came out.

hope everything gets worked out.

Pretty sure Livernois was doing them for FRPP by then...not trying to be a downer. For individual sales Livernois marked the cylinder head with the customer name and job number. Mine was located on the back of the head just under the valve cover. Not sure if they would also be marked in a similar fashion for bulk sales though.

 

[Tre06GTP1SC]

I got a PM from Mike today here is what it said:

Hey Tre, wanted to get back with you following my findings in looking into the heads. After inspecting the heads and mocking up the valvetrain and checking it out it appears that the heads have an issue with the cam tower alignment, pretty severely in fact. Enough so that when I rotate the checking cam around in the head it causes the follower to get pushed both forward and backwards instead of in a clean arc like it normally should, this is because the cam tunnel is way out of whack and letting the cam move around a ton, looks like the heads are very distorted.

This would explain why the top of the valves were scrubbing so hard and eventually bending and breaking. The geometry is all out of whack. We should have caught this on our end when doing the machine work. Unfortunately at that time (roughly two years ago) we usually only went through and did the normal machine work on the heads (valvejob, guides, valve grinding., etc.) and left some of the end work up to the installer (checking lash, verifying cam clearance) this allowed for a major oversight in these castings. Because the heads are cores we should have more diligently checked them to make sure there was no possible issues. The end installer checking the work out would probably catch this is they were familiar with Modular engines, most would see the cam movement in the cam tunnel and see that something is up. But that still doesn't fix that we screwed up originally and didn't catch the issue.

So as I said before if we find that the issue is as a result of our error than we would cover the cost. Because this is our error we will cover the cost of building a new set of stage 2 heads. I'm very sorry of course that this happened as no one wants to see anyone struggle and have issues with something like this. I'm not really a cylinder head guy, nor do I work in that department so I'm just kind of getting my feet wet and trying to help out in this scenario. We've added people to our staff since a couple of years ago and have also implemented new procedures since then to catch things like this. We spin a camshaft in every head we build to check geometry and we also check tip heights to verify lash ahead of time just to make sure there are no issues.

Anyway I'm sorry for the issues that these heads have caused you. I told management that at this point all we can do is own up too making a mistake, cover the cost of getting a replacement set of heads and work with helping the customer out. They were good with this arrangement.

We can also help with gaskets or head bolts if you need those things for re-assembly, we can get them for you at no charge.

Again, I'm sorry that you had issue with our product, while cylinder heads are not something that I normally deal with as I'm primarily in the engine department I still want to make sure that any customer we deal with has a good and positive experience.

I'll post in the thread as well with an explanation of the findings on your heads and how our oversight on a set of bad castings allowed for this. This way everyone can know we are working towards a resolution and also that when you make a mistake the only right thing to ever do is admit to that and try and make it right.

Let me know your thoughts.

Thanks
Mike

Mike, I appreciate your help in making things right. You stepped in when I lost all faith from dealing with Dave. I appreciate yours and Livernois' honesty in this situation. I appreciate you and your company having the integrity and the fortitude to admit a mistake was made, and be willing to make it right. I will send you a PM about the other things we discussed.

 

[BruceH]

what? are you serious? go another mustang site? no way.....lol

i really don't hang around any of the other mustang forums, i figure all i need to know can be found out here.

at least you didn't tell me to use the search button here..

It wasn't directed at you, lol. I was just thinking about this Marine (the op) going though a bunch of hoops to resolve a known problem. The more I thought about it the more it upset me.

It looks like Livernois took care of everything so hopefully the OP is back on the road soon.