Good article regarding the S197 as a track car

Discussion in 'Mustang Chit Chat' started by RavenGT, Sep 15, 2020.

  1. Anti

    Anti forum member

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    Quick, someone grab Rocky, he's about to choke someone!
     
  2. 06 T-RED S/C GT

    06 T-RED S/C GT forum member

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    It's all good Ray :waytogo:
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2020
  3. Sigma6

    Sigma6 Member

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    You’re the only one bent out of shape. About being Respectful and displaying courteous manners, you’re rabbling on and on, cussing and petty name calling. No where have I personally attacked you through cussing, name-calling, or of like. It’s all been your opinion, including your opinion to be upset. Likewise your opinion of this being about only you, “then don't bother wasting any of the forum members time on this site, to begin with!” Sure sounds plural. You got the nerve to take my words out of context, I haven’t thrown anything in your face. Unless your face got smacked by your computer for getting to close to the screen. You deflecting now.

    To think you started this tirade over me starting to say “ I want to make sure I am understanding.” I wanted to asked, that’s asking for clarity. But instead you went into Rage-Mode. If that’s what triggers you, I feel for you and your outlook on life. If you think somethings there, ask initially. Who cares if i asked x questions, I guess thanks for keeping count. If your confused maybe you should have asked some questions vs jumping on someone took quick. People aren’t mind-reader. Things get lost in text translations unfortunately. I asked a question and you came at me for it. It’s the internet.

    I am sure you’ll respond to my post but I don’t want to assume. As that’s what’s caused this. So I’ll be move along now. I wish you the best. And I look forward to talking with you again about mustangs in a different threads.;)
     
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2020
  4. Norm Peterson

    Norm Peterson corner barstool sitter

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    If 10 is all you get going from OEMs at 400 to no cats at all, a reasonable assumption going from OEM to 200 high-flows ought to be something less. Even a full 10 HP gain isn't going to make for all that much gain on the street, and I'm not seeing any hints about timed drag racing to the point where a tenth or less would matter.

    This isn't the 1970s, and the pellet cats of that era that maybe wheezed all the way to 200 cfm have been gone for decades already. IOW, the gains today from swapping or deleting cats ain't what they used to be.


    Norm
     
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2020
    06 T-RED S/C GT likes this.
  5. 06 T-RED S/C GT

    06 T-RED S/C GT forum member

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    So once again you attempt to discredit my posts with yet another one of your alternative facts, all because I called you out over them and the reason for your attempts to discredit my posts to begin with, was despite my best efforts to provide you with support, my responses just weren't good enough to your liking. Therefore you first attempted to discredit me by claiming that I said there was no difference in performance gains between the stock catted exhaust vs off-road/catless which once again you completely misinterpreted, as I clearly responded to your question by stating there is very little to be gained performance wise between a 200 cell hi-flow cat vs off-road/catless. When that wasn't good enough to your liking, you once again attempted to discredit me with yet another of your alternative facts by claiming that I posted net horsepower gains which once again I never mentioned nor posted. All I said was other than for just sound, there is very little performance gains to be had between the stock cats vs hi-flow cats. So needless to say when somebody such as yourself puts me on the defensive by making false claims? yeah, that does in fact get me bent out of shape to say the very least, especially when my objective is to provide support when addressing a fellow forum member's questions and concerns to the best of my ability. And yet you have the nerve to claim I took your words out of context and now claim that I was resorting to name calling? Are you really serious lol? Other than referring to you as a newbie, which btw: you currently are on this site, show me where I ever resorted to name calling directed towards you specifically lol. Bottom line, it was you who took my words out of context and misinterpreted them from the get-go and then had the damn nerve to discredit my responses with your false accusation claims. As for my rambling on and on including all my opinions are concerned? well they didn't seem to be an issue until I finally had enough of your discrediting attempts by calling you out on them. Prior to that, I was attempting nothing more other than for addressing your specific questions and concerns. But then again, perhaps you would've just preferred that I had not bothered to address your questions or concerns at all, to begin with in the first place lol? Well lets just say that after what I know now, I now regret attempting to ever address any of your questions/concerns and wish that I never had lol. At any rate, your attempts to discredit my posts with your alternative fact claims will not work and for those who know me best on this site also know better as well. That being said, I've already moved on and there will be no further communication between you and myself, period! ;)
     
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2020
  6. Sky Render

    Sky Render Stig's Retarded Cousin S197 Team Member

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    Get a room, you two.

    You can't detail a car with the cover on.
     
    dark steed and 06 T-RED S/C GT like this.
  7. 06 T-RED S/C GT

    06 T-RED S/C GT forum member

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    I've moved on and done with it.
     
    stkjock likes this.
  8. Anti

    Anti forum member

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    Lol! Yea, Jesse!
     
    06 T-RED S/C GT and Sky Render like this.
  9. BillyJRacing

    BillyJRacing Junior Member

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    Hey guys, I wanted to update this thread with the links of all of the articles thus far.

    I just started this project on MotoIQ to take my experience and background racing the S197 Mustang platform professionally over the past 10 years in Grand-Am, and as a development driver who worked with Ford on the GT350, GT500 and Ford GT (among other Mustang variants) to recommend how to make an inexpensive, powerful, great handling and fun to drive track car. Stay tuned for some insight on the car, what's important to upgrade and what isn't necessary or even detrimental to change. Enjoy:

    Part 1: INTRO

    "More people need to consider the (2005-2014) “S197” Mustang for track use! Parts are cheap and it really does not take much to turn one into an awesome “Driver’s-car”. There are a lot of misconceptions that Mustangs don’t handle well, are too heavy, and only belong on the drag strip. This project car is focused on dispelling these myths and show how to make arguably the best and least expensive 400whp track car."

    [​IMG]
    [URL unfurl="true"]https://motoiq.com/project-budget-400whp-s197-mustang-track-car-intro/[/URL]


    Project Budget 400WHP S197 Mustang Track Car: Part 2 – Finding out what it takes to make 400WHP

    "We strap our first-generation 5.0L “Coyote” V8-powered S197 Mustang to the dyno and test the 2018+ “Gen-3” intake manifold, K&N air intake, and tunes by Palm Beach Dyno to find out the least expensive way to make 400 WHP on pump gas. "

    [​IMG]
    [URL unfurl="true"]https://motoiq.com/project-budget-4...t-2-finding-out-what-it-takes-to-make-400whp/[/URL]

    In the article:

    -Baseline dyno
    -Dyno K&N Performance Cold Air Intake
    -Dyno 2018 "Gen3" intake manifold
    -Dyno Tune by Palm Beach Dyno


    Project Budget 400WHP S197 Mustang Track Car: Part 4 – Installing the Roush 3rd Link

    " Upgrading the 3rd link suspension arm in an S197 Mustangs is far more important than just to reduce wheel hop. Picking the right one will greatly affect the car’s handling and rear grip (and we all know Mustangs need rear grip). To improve the performance of our budget track car, we install the best 3rd Link on the market, from Roush Performance."

    [​IMG]

    [URL unfurl="true"]https://motoiq.com/project-budget-4...ack-car-part-5-installing-the-roush-3rd-link/[/URL]

    In the article:

    -The importance of the 3rd Link
    -Why most aftermarket 3rd Links actually hurt the car's performance and ride quality
    -Installation


    Project Budget 400WHP S197 Mustang Track Car: Part 5 – Upgrading to an Eaton Truetrac LSD


    " A performance Limited Slip Differential is a MUST for making 2005-2014 (S197) Mustangs handle predictably. We replace the weak factory LSD with Eaton’s TrueTrac helical (gear-driven) LSD which will transform the driving experience and character of the car.

    [​IMG]
    [URL unfurl="true"]https://motoiq.com/project-budget-4...ar-part-5-upgrading-to-an-eaton-truetrac-lsd/[/URL]

    In the article:

    -Stock LSD vs Torsen-style
    -The tech behind Torque Bias Ratios
    -Installation


    Project Budget 400WHP S197 Mustang Track Car: Part 6 – Going Through the Suspension with Steeda


    " This is where we defy the misconceptions and show how to make an S197 Mustang into a corner-carving track car. We are going to cover the pros and cons of Panhard Bars vs Watts Links, and go through the entire suspension with Steeda, picking the least expensive way to make our car fun to drive and competent on track."

    [​IMG]
    [URL unfurl="true"]https://motoiq.com/project-budget-4...t-6-going-through-the-suspension-with-steeda/[/URL]

    In the article:

    -Panhard Bar vs Watts Link Pros & Cons
    -Analysis: Panhard Bar Geometry vs Watts Link
    -Overview & Front S197 Geometry vs Extended Ball Joint LCA
    -Front LCA Removal
    -Front LCA Install
    -Rear Axle Weight Removal
    -Rear Lower Control Arm & Panhard Bar Install


    Project Budget 400WHP S197 Mustang Track Car: Part 7 – Springs, Shocks, and Bars

    " Staying true to the ‘budget’ track car theme, we skipped expensive coilovers and upgraded our S197 Mustang with track-capable springs, shocks, and swaybars from Steeda."

    [​IMG]

    [URL unfurl="true"]https://motoiq.com/project-budget-400whp-s197-mustang-track-car-part-7-springs-shocks-and-bars/[/URL]

    In the article:

    -Front and Rear spring, shock and swaybar install
    -Lightweight Radiator Support Brace Install
    -The importance of a bumpsteer kit when installing extended front balljoints
    -Street Review
    -The creation of a new Steeda Suspension Package (Based off my feedback and the development of this project car).

    -Billy
     
  10. LarryJM

    LarryJM forum member

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    So a 2018 Intake gets you 25hp increase to over 400WHP on a gen 1 and a standard gen 3 2018 has 417. Don't believe it. I believe the numbers 376 389 and 417 are much closer together in real life.
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2021
  11. Norm Peterson

    Norm Peterson corner barstool sitter

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    Welcome aboard, Billy


    Norm
     
    BillyJRacing likes this.
  12. Juice

    Juice forum member

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    Nothing but a tune, and a JLT 2 intake made over 400 to the wheels on 87 pump gas. And I am sure the CAI didnt add much if any.
    So what were the dyno numbers with and without the '18 intake? As Im considering that upgrade to mine.
     
  13. LarryJM

    LarryJM forum member

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    In any event, the numbers are like this. With a 3460 lbs car with 376 RWH you get a 12.2 car and with a 3860 lbs car and 417 RWH your talking about a 12.2 car. That was the issue with all my test drives last month. All the Mustangs including my 2014 all more or less drive the same power wise but the 2021 Track Pack did feel like a slot car. All $54,200 worth.

    DSC_0352.JPG

    DSC_0351.JPG
     
  14. BillyJRacing

    BillyJRacing Junior Member

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    Your 2018 has noticeably longer transmission ratios than pre-'15. To get the most accurate comparison as possible, you want to do an A-B dyno comparison under identical conditions. The dyno testing I have conducted tried to reduce as many variables as possible, and pulls were often done within hours of each other.
     
  15. LarryJM

    LarryJM forum member

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    It is possible with the 10 speed trans and sticky tires you will get below 12 seconds on the 1/4. Then again the 6 speed sold in the 2011 is the same 6 speed in the 2021. They tell me it's built by Mercedes Benz/BMW in China.

    aaatran2.jpg
     
  16. BillyJRacing

    BillyJRacing Junior Member

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    2011-present are all Getrag MT-82s but the gear ratios changed in 2018:

    2011-2017:

    First Gear Ratio - 3.66
    Second Gear Ratio - 2.43
    Third Gear Ratio - 1.69
    Fourth Gear Ratio - 1.31
    Fifth Gear Ratio - 1.00
    Sixth Gear Ratio - 0.65

    2018+:

    First Gear Ratio - 3.237
    Second Gear Ratio - 2.104
    Third Gear Ratio - 1.422
    Fourth Gear Ratio - 1.00
    Fifth Gear Ratio - 0.814
    Sixth Gear Ratio - 0.622
     
  17. Juice

    Juice forum member

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    I have a junkyard pull '13 coyote engine in an 07 base.
     
    BillyJRacing likes this.
  18. LarryJM

    LarryJM forum member

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    If that is the case then 3:31s rears in the 2014 Mustang are the same as 3:73 rears in the 2018 Mustang with an over all ratio for both as 12 to 1. I can see why the 10 speed auto with a very steep 1st gear and 3:55 would feel very strong and might get into the very high 11s.
     
  19. BillyJRacing

    BillyJRacing Junior Member

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    It depends on what car you have. For Mustangs with manual transmissions:

    3.31s were standard on 2011-2014 (S197) & 2015-2017 (S550) Mustang GTs.
    3.73s were an option on 2011-2017 GTs and standard on the Track Pack, BOSS, Shelby, and Performance Pack Cars.
    3.73s were standard on 2018+ Mustangs.
     
  20. Dino Dino Bambino

    Dino Dino Bambino I have a red car

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    Adding the 2018 intake manifold will require you to disable the IMRCs and get a retune. The dyno changes on a Gen 1 Coyote could be summarised as follows:

    1. Below 5500rpm. It's a toss up with the 2018 manifold showing small gains or losses at various rpm. The torque peak will shift upwards from 4250 to 4600rpm.

    2. 5500-6500rpm. Small HP/TQ gains from the 2018 manifold.

    3. Above 6500rpm. Bigger HP/TQ gains from the 2018 manifold that increase in magnitude as rpm increases. The HP peak will shift upwards from 6500 to 7000rpm, and you may see a 30+hp gain at 7500rpm which effectively becomes your new redline.

    The results are even better if the 2018 manifold is ported.
    You might want to check out these two videos:



     
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