Lunati VooDoo #21270700 Camshafts

Discussion in 'Mustang Chit Chat' started by GlassTop09, May 24, 2019.

  1. GlassTop09

    GlassTop09 Member

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    FYI,

    Just ran a little test today on these new cats to see how they'll operate at startup thru engine hot idle speeds (light off & low temp operation) using my trusty Foxwell NT301 scan tool.

    After 10 mins into startup (cold start into CL w\ idle @ 750 RPM's, ECT @ 175*F so thermostat was still closed), both cats lit off at 950*F (just after PCM started reading B1S2 & B2S2 voltage outputs into live data) w\ B1S2 hitting .810 mV & B2S2 hitting .825 mV holding steady.
    After 15 mins more w\ engine at full hot idle (ECT @ 195*F at 750 RPM's) both operating CMBT's @ 982*F w\ B1S2 @ .750 mV, B2S2 @ .750 mV also holding steady so these MagnaFlow #5461336 cats are operating perfectly at these low idle speeds so there'll be no doubt of operation once engine load%, RPM's & CMBT's increase so I now have good baseline data to use to compare to in any future checks.

    In contrast the Kooks Hi Flow Race cats (back during the 5-20 tests...BDG CEL Eliminators skew this part of operation) wouldn't quite light off & heat up the same under the same scenario (at 998*F--was post cat temps, not CMBT's--B1S2 @ .187-.475 mV, B2S2 @ .325-.725 mV) but once engine RPM's were increased B1S2 voltages would climb to mimic B2S2 voltages so were showing to operate, but from data & knowledge gained since then I know now that the EVAP purging cycling thru the FRPP IM's poor EVAP port design was messing w\ their operation (getting hit w\ excessive unmetered O2\fuel fumes that the cats couldn't control\oxidize well enough so excess O2 was breaking thru substrates during each successive EVAP purge cycle causing the rear O2 sensors to slowly increase switch rates over time until B2 cat crossed the PCM CE ratio threshold ahead of the B1 cat........

    The best advice I can give you would be to go on your State's web site to look up the Emissions Requirements to see if there's any info given surrounding your setup configuration (to date I haven't found any that do have info on aftermarket FI setups except CARB) then find a local who has a similar setup as yours to see if there is a specific certification station to go to that is manned by well versed certification techs who actually know the EPA\State regs well to get you squared away. This part will most likely be the biggest challenge at this time IMHO......

    Not much but hope this helps.
     
    MrBhp likes this.
  2. GlassTop09

    GlassTop09 Member

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    FYI,

    IMG_0423 Oil Contamination.JPG

    Here is a picture of 1 of the Kooks Hi Flow Race cats that was removed from my car. Look at the upper right corner of the picture & you'll see the evidence of why I ran some MotorKote Catalyst Cleaner thru these before I ran the 2nd test back in 5-20......

    If there's any other good reason as to why a good catch can setup is a needed item to use w\ these 3V's, here it is......

    Note: I also have swapped out my catch can to a better designed one that uses SS mesh along w\ better double baffling inlet chamber to improve the oil stripping capability in the PCV system airflow return (did this after I changed the IM's & saw that the unit I had installed wasn't working as good as I thought it was.....a double baffle design but w\o SS mesh).

    MotorKote Catalyst Cleaner is the only product out there that specifically is formulated to clean out oil contamination from cat substrate cells.

    Posted for informational purposes.........

    PS--Putting this in here if from reading all this that I still have the FRPP IM in my possession......I have given it to my tuner @ On3 Dyno as a gift for him to use w\ his '07 GT full race build to show my appreciation to him for his expertise w\ my tuning needs & frankly his courteous nature.......also to get it out of my storage shed taking up space....

    So sorry it's gone........

    FYI.
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2021
  3. GlassTop09

    GlassTop09 Member

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    1 more observation after installation of these MF #5461336 cats:

    I noticed that when I was driving my car on the maiden run, the interior cabin drone from the exhaust had reduced considerably to the point that at times I couldn't hear the engine running over the radio....I didn't have the Kenwood's volume cranked up either (was set at volume 12 level for those that know Kenwood audio systems) so this got me to thinking bout the exhaust sound outside the cabin so as my habits usually are when these types of situations arise, I set up a recording of my car's current exhaust note under similar conditions (backed in under my carport so the sound waves emitted encounter the same structural surroundings) using my same ole IPhone 7S as a prior recording I've done of it's exhaust note w\ the Kooks cats installed......

    After recording this then exporting the recording to my desktop computer (has a Creative SoundBlaster X7 audio DAC\AMP interface thru a set of Logitech THX Z63 2.1 high end satellite\subwoofer speakers then also thru my set of Sennheiser GAM4E closed cup headphones) to then playback both recordings to see if I can detect any difference in external sound that would\could explain what I was not hearing in cabin while driving....the 2 external recordings were practically identical in tone, reverb, db thus quality so the only thing that I can deduce from this is that what I experienced was that the cats were the main drivers of cabin drone in my car....not the Pypes Super Bomb catback exhaust!

    The MF cats design dramatically reduced the exhaust frequency\resonance emitted thru the cats shell that got amplified by my car's cabin (they're sitting right under the unibody floorboard ahead of the front seats as were the Kooks cats) so this is a welcome result that I can definately get behind!

    Quieter on the inside but LOUD on the outside......!

    Now I gotta relearn other cues to replace the cabin drone cues I've grown accustomed to while driving the car to inform me of operational changes to assist in driving (like clutch engagement\disengagement points for starters...not all a "feel" thing).
     
  4. GlassTop09

    GlassTop09 Member

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    FYI,

    Just got back from making a run on the car (mix of stop & go driving & freeway driving....approx 89 mi at this time) then got out my trusty Foxwell NT301 scan tool & checked the Mode 6 Self Check Cat CE ratios:

    B1 Catalyst CE ratio @ .090 (up from .055 on initial drive cycle)
    B2 Catalyst CE ratio @ .102 (up from .055 on initial drive cycle)

    These numbers are becoming more realistic in what to expect...... settling into the low to high .1xx CE ratio range is where I think they'll eventually end up.

    Car is running excellent thruout w\ absolutely NO CABIN DRONE now....NONE.....ooohhhh so nice!
    All is holding up very well to date so will be planning to take her on a longer drive soon to put more run time on these MagnaFlow cats to settle the ceramic substrates more but all looking good so far.

    A run to Albuquerque & back should pretty much settle em out (this will put in excess of 300+ mi on them).
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2021
  5. GlassTop09

    GlassTop09 Member

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    Magnaflow 5461336: CALIFORNIA - JEGS High Performance

    Here is a link from JEGS Performance on this Magnaflow #5461336 cat of the very wide coverage (including supercharged & turbocharged as well as naturally aspirated 4 cyl, 6 cyl, 8 cyl & 2-rotor Wankel turbocharged engines) that this 1 cat SKU covers....all are factory CARB OEM performance PC <8500 GVWR class LEVII vehicles (some Fed 49 State vehicles fall under the same EFN#...like my '09 GT for example) so this SKU part has hi flow, hi thermal thus performance characteristics designed into it (but can't be advertised as such by EPA mandate). Click on Vehicle Fitment to see the entire range of vehicles this SKU covers legally.

    JEGS Performance is 1 of the very few companies that has EPA signoff to advertise these CARB\EPA legal converters on their web site so is a good site to look for\purchase CARB\Fed EPA legal cats other than on Cali's CARB site.

    As you can see, these aren't cheap.....but are definately legal. Price is the same on Magnaflow's web site so no mark up is added by JEGS so costs is MSRP......

    FYI.............
     
  6. GlassTop09

    GlassTop09 Member

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    FYI,

    Here are some more numbers since the 1st initial CE ratio numbers I posted on these new cats performance:

    On 9-21-21 (after approx 18.7 mi of mostly stop & go driving between 25-45 MPH w\ approx 3 mi of the 18.7mi hiway type driving @ 55-65 MPH):
    B1 CE ratio @ .145 (this looks like there was either an excessive spike in O2 that got thru substrate from a higher than normal B1S1 Mode 6 Self Check Amplitude Test result--was at .8304, normal is around .73xx-.75xx range--or an errant B1S2 rich to lean & lean to rich V\ms transition--noted that B1S2 at hot idle now sometimes goes lean momentarily then switches back rich but the B1S2 Mode 6 Self Check V\ms Transition Rate Test results didn't reveal any out of ordinary test patterns....may be an anomaly of B1S2 voltage output operation itself which caused the CE ratio spike & not the cat substrate....something to keep an eye on)
    B2 CE ratio @ .121 (B2 shows to be more consistent than B1, probably due to B2S1 maintaining a steady amplitude in the .73xx to .75xx range & B2S2 voltage output steady at .755-.822. This is the side I pay more attention to anyway due to the LTFT adjustment differences concerning CE ratio....it did move up but at a lot less rate of change so IMHO more realistic)

    Today (after approx 22.7 mi of mostly stop & go driving between 25-45 MPH w\ approx 3 mi of the 22.7 mi hiway type driving @ 55-60 MPH--cops were present--& approx 5.5 mi of the 22.7 mi running Animas River twisties--think canyon carving\gear rowing [email protected] 45-55 MPH where traffic allowed...otherwise 25-35 MPH....always gotta be 1 driver to get in the way.....):
    B1 CE ratio @ .129 (this is what I was hoping to see. Note the correction back towards the B2 CE ratio result.....B1S1 Mode 6 Self Check Amplitude Test result data showed an amplitude correction back towards the normal amplitude test result patterns which implied an O2 spike into cat substrate causing more O2 break thru than otherwise during 9-21-21 run....a wayward intermittent fuel injector may be at play here....noticed the B1 LTFT make a fuel correction to -2.3% from 0.8% then 3 mins later correct back to 0.8% w\ B1 STFT's switching normally...all at hot idle parked after today's run w\ B2 LTFT holding steady thruout. FRP was operating within normal ranges--39 to 40 psi--EVAP purge cycle was in progress when this occurred. May be coincidental, may not be either. May consider inspecting\switching injectors across banks at some point in future after running injector olm tests to see if this pattern follows B1 injectors to B2....then take it from there)
    B2 CE ratio @ .125 (rate of change is slowing down indicating cat substrate settling....all B2S1\B2S2 Mode 6 Self Check Amplitude & V\ms Transition Rate Test results all within normal operating patterns.....good sign that makes a wayward B1 injector appear more likely.....)

    Will reassess all this after I get a long, steady run on these cats to heat em up real good & work these injectors.........been awhile since she's been stretched out so all may straighten out after a good long run as planned to do. Engine idle is smooth & very steady........

    Items I notice while looking at scan tool live data & updated Mode 6 Self Check Test data.........

    All in all, it's looking good so far......

    PS--To date we got 11 recorded drive cycles in on these new Magnaflow #5461336 cats since I reset the KAM when I picked up the car after installation.
     
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2021
  7. GlassTop09

    GlassTop09 Member

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    FYI.........

    Here are some numbers recorded after a weather change (got much cooler up here in the US 4 Corners area over the last 7-10 days.....temps dropped from hi 80's\hi 50's to lo 60's\hi 30's w\ several days of raining as well so the humidity was up....from being in the 5%-8% range to the 40%-60% range) to show how this affects cat CE ratio:

    9-29-21....in the middle of the temp drops between rain squalls. In prior posted numbers given the parked under hood IAT's after driving were in the hi 120*F\lo 130*F range due to much higher AAT's. Today after putting 50.2 mi on car, the under hood IAT was 101*F.
    B1 CE ratio @ .135
    B2 CE ratio @ .148
    CMBT @ 998*F
    All numbers held established patterns at this time.

    Note: This is following simple dynamics of increased air mass density & humidity, which can increase fuel used, which can increase exhaust NMOG, CO & potentially NOx output due to increased VE.....VE increases w\ cooler air mass as well as w\ elevation rise due to more open throttle blade angle (read less restriction thus less work to move air into engine) even though elevation rise actually lowers total air mass thruput vs sea level due to less air press to drive airflow into engine.
    Wrap your head around that 1......

    9-30-21....this was the coldest period (left house early to make a doctor's appointment...AAT @ 37*F). Car stumbled a little on initial startup from IAT\ECT fuel enrichment adders (remember car was retuned in July so all prior learned values were gone) but eventually cleared up. Put a total of 22.5 mi on today, under hood IAT was 87*F.
    B1 CE ratio @ .164
    B2 CE ratio @ .184
    CMBT @ 990*F
    Also saw both B1S1\B2S1 amplitude checks exceed .8xxx along w\ B1S2\B2S2 LTR & RTL V\ms transitions checks spike up so the O2 sensors also reacted to the increased O2 influx along w\ both banks STFT\LTFT readouts (both sides cut LTFT's by 3.1% vs prior readouts.....kinda odd for PCM to cut fueling when the airmass density\humidity increased from cooler IAT....unless this is a result of increased VE that I'm not aware of). Car ran very strong though due to this cool air.....very nice!

    10-1-21....checked car to see if PCM will apply any learned values on cold start (AAT @ 38*F)...started right up w\o any fuss so PCM learned well. Put 34.6 mi on today, under hood IAT was 98*F.
    B1 CE ratio @ .156
    B2 CE ratio @ .176
    CMBT @ 992*F
    Noted both B1S1\B2S1 amplitude checks fell back within the normal .7xxx along w\ B1S2\B2S2 LTR & RTL V\ms transition checks also falling back within normal ranges as well as both banks STFT\LTFT readouts (both sides added back the same 3.1% LTFT cut done yesterday) thus the CE ratio results also followed suit. Car ran just as well today as it did yesterday so all is looking well.....really a blast to drive now.

    Got a total of 21 drive cycles & 232 mi on these cats since installation so not far off from the min of 300 mi that MagnaFlow quoted for substrate settlement so these #5461336 CARB-cert OBDII-compliant cats show to work very, very well w\ my modded & tuned NA 4.6L V8 (Ford Bullitt 85mm CAI w\ dust sock on filter using OEM MC ALM-131 MAF sensor, Ford Performance 62mm TB, '08 OEM IM w\ Steeda CMDP's, Lunati VooDoo #21270700 cams, Mishimoto HP 3-row Aluminum radiator & OEM 13-14 GT500 cooling fan\shroud, Kooks 1 5\8" LTH's & X-Pipe, used NTK 22060, 22500 O2 sensors, used Champion 9406 Iridium spark plugs, local dyno tuned @ On3 Dyno & Performance by the same tuner who tuned it since I ditched BAMA tunes back in 8-2018 pushing 352 HP\319 TQ on 91 oct pump gas running 3.73 gears on 26" dia tires so is definately not an OEM stock setup) which to me isn't much of a surprise since the VE calc's I ran using the CARB test data demonstrated that they should so are validated....but I do love the fact that the CE ratio results are as low (thus high efficiency) as they're showing to be.

    The only thing left to do now (for data purposes only....not necessary due to my car being MY OBDII LEV I & cat is a CARB EO# legal OBDII-compliant VEI\EFN# matched part) is to get an appointment set up w\ a certified emissions tester that has the equipment necessary to perform the ASM 5-gas analyzer 15 MPH\25 MPH emissions cert test to see how much\little NOx is actually being emitted....it should be well below the current Fed limit of .010 gms\mi & hopefully even below the current Cali limit of .007 gms\mi (which should also be easily doable from the results of my VE calc's concerning this cat design & their CARB test data results.....w\ the VCT in my 4.6L V8 limited to 20* max retard in all mappings).

    Looking good..................
     
  8. GlassTop09

    GlassTop09 Member

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    A fun comparison...................

    Car didn't pass VA emissions - Green cats in my future? | Page 4 | S197 Mustang Forum - S197Forum.com

    In this thread's post #63 cavero posted his Mode 6 Cat B1 & B2 CE ratio readouts from installing a pair of Kooks 2 1\2" Green Cats (hi flow version made by G-Sport that supposedly has Fed EPA certification but can't find any verification of it outside of what G-Sport has posted on it's web site of it's own HO version....) & after driving his car as follows:
    B1 Cat CE ratio @ .355
    B2 Cat CE ratio @ .273
    Also a non stock NA 4.6L V8 running the FRPP IM........

    I wonder how much this FRPP IM's EVAP port design is affecting his cat's overall CE ratio results here since discovering later on how my FRPP IM's EVAP port design during EVAP purging cycles had affected my Kooks Hi Flow Race cats CE ratio results negatively......

    They're obviously passing emissions certification as is in cavero's case...........so most don't even give this a passing thought......as I'm sure that I would've noted a similar outcome in my case if I'd still had the FRPP IM installed w\ these MagnaFlow #5461336 cats.

    Stuff I think about............especially when I find\note a common deficiency in an identical component.
     
  9. GlassTop09

    GlassTop09 Member

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    FYI,

    As of today it appears that we've settled out the MagnaFlow #5461336 cats after making today's run (put 162.2 mi on for a total of 25 drive cycles\414.5 mi on these cats since installation) as follows:

    10-6-21
    Put 12 mi of all stop & go driving w\ under hood IAT @ 87*F:
    B1 CE ratio @ .156
    B2 CE ratio @ .211
    CMBT @ 982#F
    All Mode 6 B1S1, B2S1, B1S2, B2S2 O2 sensor self check data was within established normal patterns.

    Today
    Put 162.2 mi of mostly hiway\freeway driving w\ a little stop & go driving mixed in w\ under hood IAT @ 98*F:
    B1 CE ratio @ .156
    B2 CE ratio @ .211
    CMBT @ 982*F
    Noted Mode 6 B1S1\B2S1 O2 sensor amplitude self check data had moved back up into the .8xxx area but B1S2\B2S2 O2 sensor self check V\ms transition data remained within normal established patterns, so going by the rear O2 sensor data & the cat's CE ratio results not changing indicates that the cat's substrates have now fully settled in to my as currently modded\tuned NA 4.6L V8 engine's exhaust output.

    Car ran excellent thruout.......definately digging the lack of cabin drone now since installing these MF cats! You can still hear the engine's exhaust note thru them Pypes mid-mounted M80 mufflers & 4" x 14" resonators\tips but it is much, much more enjoyable w\o the intermittent droning.....reminds me now of how my '71 Olds Cutlass Supreme\'75 403 cu in V8 swap w\ a pair of 30" glasspacks & 4" x 18" stove pipe tips used to sound back in the day stretching her out on US I-20 before it got totaled......

    Ran a distribution test on the OEM IM by pulling the catch can dipstick while idling w\ my Foxwell NT301 scan tool set up looking at B1, B2 STFT\LTFT & B1S1\B2S1 O2 sensor voltage outputs to see if 1 bank reacted more\less than the other (PCV IM inlet port is in the side of plenum just aft of the TB mount flange so not routed to the center of TB airstream inlet like the EVAP port is).....noted both banks increased\decreased STFT's equally on the extra unmetered air intake so w\ this OEM IM design the PCV side inlet port shows to have no effect on the IM air distribution thru plenum thus STFT\LTFT readout differences so what LTFT differences I do see between banks is due mainly to the injectors themselves.

    At this point I believe she's all in good mechanical order w\ all systems verified operating in good shape.....no leaks & no errors so all good to go.

    So once I get the final rear end upgrades & fuel pump replacement\wiring upgrade squared away she'll be done mechanically.

    Hope all this info in this thread can be of use to someone down the line.
     
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