Melling M340HV oil pump thoughts?

Discussion in '2005+ Mustang GT 4.6L Tech' started by Adomis63, Jan 8, 2022.

  1. Adomis63

    Adomis63 Junior Member

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    Hey all, this winter I'm tackling a timing job on my 07 GT. I had figured since I was already in there I would replace/upgrade the oil pump as many people online recommend upgrading to a high volume or high pressure pump.

    The car has 275K on it so if it is an original motor I would guess it could benefit from a high volume pump - I would keep the stock pressure. This leads me to the Melling M340HV pump.

    My understanding is this pump was released in 2018 so it's fairly recent and I couldn't find anyone talking about it on any of the forums sites. Is this a good path to go down?
     
  2. skwerl

    skwerl tree hugger

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    Absolutely. It should be a requirement. I just finished a 5.4 project on my 2005 F350 and installed one. There's a thread around here somewhere (pitstop).
     
    freeloader1969 likes this.
  3. RED09GT

    RED09GT Equal Opportunity Offender S197 Team Member

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    The stock pump's downfall is the backing plate flexing. The stock gears also have a reputation for shattering due to pd blowers, 2 step rev limiters, etc...
    The melling pump is definitely a good idea. The ultimate is a set of billet gears and a 2013/2014 GT500 pump that has the billet steel backing plate, too bad that pump is out of production.
     
  4. Dino Dino Bambino

    Dino Dino Bambino I have a red car

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    The good news is you can find the 13-14 GT500 pump from many sources:

    https://www.google.com/search?q=DR3Z6600A

    A new OEM 3V oil pump pickup tube can then be mated to the GT500 oil pump. If the '07-'14 GT500 oil pump pickup tube (Ford part no. 7R3Z6622AA) is used instead, the OEM windage tray can be replaced with the '13-'14 GT500 oil pan gasket/windage tray (Ford part no BR3Z-6710-B).

    https://www.angelfire.com/my/fan/Mustang2006GT/Engine.html
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2022
    crjackson2134 and CtRoush like this.
  5. 05stroker

    05stroker Never enough power guy!

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    I figured that would happen, that's why I bought a few back in the day, I have three brand new spares in my parts cabinet.
     
  6. Lime1Gt

    Lime1Gt Member

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    All you need to know;
    Lot's more info on his website.
     
  7. EBABlacknChrome

    EBABlacknChrome forum member

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    But does that come with the billet backing plate? It doesn't say that I saw.

    Sent from my SM-G996U using Tapatalk
     
  8. skwerl

    skwerl tree hugger

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    If you aren't constantly running your engine to 6000+ rpm then the billet backing plate won't make any difference. How often are you at 6000 rpm in your Mustang?
     
  9. EBABlacknChrome

    EBABlacknChrome forum member

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    Every stop light, stop sign, most shifts on the way to CC or blowing steam off! Maybe not everywhere but you know what I mean. I don't 1/4 mile or roll race it. Just drive it to blow the dust off. seems easy enough to make a backing plate with the access to a machine shop I have.

    Sent from my SM-G996U using Tapatalk
     
  10. Dino Dino Bambino

    Dino Dino Bambino I have a red car

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    The GT500 pump does come with a steel backing plate but not with billet gears.
     
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  11. Rick Simons

    Rick Simons Member

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    The VCT system on these engines demands a lot of oil volume from what I've seen. It would be an interesting experiment to install pressure gauges at various points and look at the pressure drops. My money is on the cam phasers as the biggest consumers of oil volume. I think 2nd to that would be the chain tensioners.
     
  12. GlassTop09

    GlassTop09 Member

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    Along w\ upgrading to this Melling oil pump, you should also seriously consider upgrading all cam followers to the latest Ford design part# 3L3Z-6564-A for the very same reasoning as the oil pump:
    IMG_0178.JPG
    The new design is the lower 1 in picture. In addition to redirecting oil flow directly onto the roller\cam lobe interface thus directly to the cam follower roller bearings to resolve the tendency of these to fail due to lack of adequate oiling, they also help to retain more oil volume flow\pressure thru the VCT solenoids\cam phasers\chain tensioners to further improve VCT response\reaction time & longevity.......especially if looking to use higher lift camshafts w\ stronger valve springs w\ VCT.

    IMHO these should be a std upgrade part on any Ford Modular 3V series engine (4.6L, 5.4L, 6.8L) as no production 3V series engine got this design from the factory (all production runs had ended prior the redesign). Found out Ford reengineered these for the 3V after finding the early 1st gen Coyotes had the same issues w\ their cam follower design & the oil squirt hole redesign resolved these problems so now it really makes no sense to keep using the older production design 3V cam followers anymore for any reason.

    You got her open so now is the time to upgrade these as well to finish it all. Wouldn't hurt to also upgrade the VCT solenoids to the latest FoMoCo design part# 8L3Z-6M280-B as Ford redesigned these after early 05-06 MY findings of excessive VCT solenoid plunger sticking to rectify this issue. Haven't found any info on when these filtered into the production line so I would suggest changing these out as well to ensure all is refreshed to the latest Ford redesigned 3V timing parts for peace of mind going forward.

    Something else to consider doing while you got the engine open.
     
  13. GlassTop09

    GlassTop09 Member

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    I had an issue happen on my engine that lends some truth to what you've posted when I had an intake valve cam follower break in 2 unknowingly (had no physical indication) on #7 cyl which unloaded the lash adjuster plunger so the adjuster had no oil control thus sprayed a continuous stream of oil which dropped system oil pressure just enough that it slowed up VCT response at low engine RPM's where the oil volume\pressure output from oil pump is the lowest but not hurt the rest of the engine......this difference was captured on a subsequent dyno datalog & noted when comparing VCT operation to the dyno datalog data run prior trying to figure out why we lost 16 HP\12 TQ (follower broke in between sessions so was chasing a "misfire" on #7 cyl thru Mode 6 data but all physical data kept coming back negative for actual misfire on same cyl. Found broke #7 intake cam follower while changing out both VCT solenoids as 1st remedy to issue....also found some metal trash from oil filter center tube hole punchout lodged in lower VCT solenoid oil port on B2 head causing oil flow restriction thru lower VCT solenoid screen--1st part of engine to get oil flow from oil pump filter is B2 cyl head. Found out about the new design cam followers from a FordTechMakuloco video & discovered my local Ford dealership had em in stock at the time so I replaced all of them w\ the new design I posted about earlier). Put back on dyno afterwards....all low end HP\TQ curves lined back up so all lost low end HP\TQ was recovered & also gained mid\top end HP\TQ in the process so no other engine work was needed.....was headed to do a full timing job w\ oil pump upgrade if this didn't fix verified lost VCT operation\response) so it doesn't take much oil volume\pressure loss to noticeably impact VCT operation\response. Oil pressure\volume delivery is the only thing that is maintaining stable & accurate engine cam timing thru VCT solenoids\cam phasers operations & chain tensioner operation.....engine HP\TQ output will follow VCT stability\response--I've seen it 1st hand.

    So if you really want to help out 3V VCT system response don't forget to upgrade these cam roller followers as well as pull the VCT solenoids to at least check all cyl head VCT oil passages for trash as well as the little oil screens that are installed in cyl head beside the VCT solenoids (didn't know about these until finding out much later after I had all this buttoned back up) while you're in there.......
     
    CtRoush likes this.
  14. Aussie-Parnelli

    Aussie-Parnelli Junior Member

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    When you replace your oil pump make sure you change the plastic tensioners, I read about this problem some time ago and ordered a set of steel ones and I also updated the pivot bolt with an 8mm thread unit. The tensioner seal was blown out on the LHS '06 302ci.jpg Tensioner.jpg [/QUOTE]S
    I do race my '06 it is stroked and runs 747 engine horsepower
    Thankfully the lower end was in perfect condition since I built the engine in 2010
    I only use the best equipment but never knew about these modifications at the time
    Engine goes back in tomorrow
     
  15. Rick Simons

    Rick Simons Member

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    Glad that worked out the way it did. That could have been so much worse!
     
  16. GlassTop09

    GlassTop09 Member

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    Yeah it could have.
    My reasoning for posting is to point out the importance of oil pressure\volume delivery to the cyl head components that will affect the VCT system as well as chain tensioners\timing chains & camshaft journals just as you're saying from a real-world experience that documents this (from just 1 lash adjuster losing oil control). The oil pump upgrade is the most easily recognizable part that can regain\enhance oil pressure\volume delivery w\o having to do a full engine rebuild to regain lost oil clearances from worn bearings\journals creating excessive leakoff\windage, but we also either seem to don't know of or recognize the importance of other components that also can\will affect oil pressure\volume delivery to critical components that should be considered at the same time.

    These new Ford redesigned Modular 3V cam roller followers are 1 of them. For Ford to go back & redesign a part for an engine series that had already gone out of production should be a big red flag to inform all that this part should be upgraded in these 3V's at the 1st opportunity.......such as what the OP is doing now.

    Any lost oil volume\pressure anywhere, at any point, can be detrimental to component longevity\operation. Ford recognized the original 3V cam follower design was a bad design (in other ways as well) & fixed it post-production run to cover the TON of 3V Modular engines equipped w\ it thus the TON of expected, upcoming failures resulting from them (if haven't had them already).

    You also should check these for any structural flaws & replace them if any are noted. Here is a picture of 1 of mine w\ a noted flaw that I believe was instrumental in the other 1 breaking:
    IMG_0179Paint3D.png IMG_0173.JPG
    These cam followers had over 150,000+ mi on them, found 7 more of them w\ this same structural flaw, note that the camshaft lobe never made contact w\ any of the follower body on the broke 1 so the roller bearings hadn't failed prior break causing follower to lose 0 lash & get thrashed under cam lobe thus was strictly a structural failure & I had already missed 1 opportunity to change them out & save myself of the potential failure issues when I swapped out cams just 8 months earlier. The new 3V design cam roller followers are made from better materials thus are much stronger & robust so much less prone to structural failure........

    These original 3V cam followers w\ the large oiling squirt hole allowing excessive oil volume spray are also partly responsible for the excessive oil entry\loss thru the PCV return system (#8 cyl is where the DS valve cover oil shield opening to PCV valve is located so any excessive oiling sprayed up\slung off cam lobes at #8 cyl gets drawn into the PCV system from the passing CC PCV air flow volume increasing velocity into the back side of this shield). I noticed a marked reduction in PCV oil mist collection--was very small to begin with--to practically nil in my catch can post cam follower changeout to the new design since these redesigned cam followers redirect oil spray at the cam follower roller\cam lobe interface instead of just spraying up at the rotating cam lobes themselves hoping to splash lube the cam lobes & roller bearings in cam follower rollers so a lot less oil spray mist is slung up into this area off cam lobe rotation\spray from lash adjusters thru the large squirt hole in cam roller followers to get siphoned into PCV return system thus IM & more oil volume is directly supplied to the roller bearings to prevent premature roller bearing failure (main failure issue w\ all original design Modular 3V cam roller followers that usually ends up cascading into more serious damage) while at the same time reducing the amount of oil volume needed to do this (very small oil squirt hole) which will increase oil volume\pressure delivery to the VCT system, chain tensioners, timing chains (chains are lubed thru the tensioners) & camshaft journals in cyl heads....very important components that improved oil pressure\volume delivery will also help.

    There are several more good reasons outside of oil pressure\volume delivery improvement in cyl head oil galleries to replace these original 3V cam roller followers w\ the new redesign outright at the 1st available opportunity.......

    So don't just think oil pump upgrade alone w\ these 3V's when doing any timing related work on them. The old Fram commercial line comes to mind, "You can pay me now or pay me later."

    Don't be that guy OP................

    My 2 cents
     
  17. Adomis63

    Adomis63 Junior Member

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    Wow! I really appreciate your guys’ answers. This really seems to go deeper than I had initially thought.. I’ll have to look into upgrading to the new follower design. AFAIK none of them are bad, but I haven’t checked them to verify it. I also strayed away from it since I don’t know how difficult it might be.

    This engine has over a quarter of a million miles on it, so I’m not sure how much money and effort I should be putting into it. I’m not going for power though, I just want a fun to drive car at this point that I’m fairly sure won’t blow up - which is why I’m doing the timing in the first place as I’ve heard these small things (e.g. cold startup chain rattle) can domino into way bigger problems.

    I’m not driving it in the winter anyways, so I may as well put in the work.
     
  18. Dino Dino Bambino

    Dino Dino Bambino I have a red car

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    That depends on how much longer you want the engine to last. Since you're already going into the engine far enough to replace the oil pump, timing kit, cam followers/lash adjusters, I'd advise that you also replace the connecting rod bearings while the oil pan is off. With over 250k miles on them, there's bound to be significant wear (especially on the top bearing shells) and replacing them will further restore oil pressure. At this point I'd strongly recommend replacing the rod bolts with ARP units.
    I know these are additional expenses but the money you put into them will buy you peace of mind
     
    crjackson2134 likes this.
  19. GlassTop09

    GlassTop09 Member

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    The very reason why I posted what I did concerning those cam roller followers is that I DID check all of them while I had the OEM cams out & they all checked out good......but 1 of them broke 8 months afterwards so you can't just go on visual\hands on checks......you simply can't determine when 1 of these original design cam roller followers will let loose. I don't remember seeing any of that potential structural stress cracking on any of them either when I checked them during cam swap but I definately saw it when I removed the #7 cyl exhaust follower to check it after finding the broken #7 cyl intake cam follower which got me to pull more of them to check & found 3 on #8, 2 on #7 (along w\ the broken 1), 2 on #6 & 1 on #5 cyls.....all on B2. B1 all were Ok. So instead of just replacing the 1 broken follower, or the 9 followers that had the stress marks I replaced ALL of them this time as this was the 2nd time (usually when these let go the damage is much worse.....taken out the camshaft itself, bent\broke the valve taking out a piston or blow out the lash adjuster taking out the cyl head) & I got LUCKY.
    I should have spent the money up front the 1st time when I had the engine open changing out the cams............

    This is also why I posted.......w\ the engine open you now have an opportunity to get rid of poorly designed timing components that can cause you to not get to where you want to go. These 3V's are very robust engines.....except w\ some timing component's initial design that Ford had to correct (cam phasers were redesigned due to issues, VCT solenoids were redesigned due to issues, cam roller followers were redesigned post-production run due to issues) because they showed\proved to be defective thus the time to replace this stuff is when the engine has been initially opened up......like you're doing now. If you're upgrading the oil pump then you may as well upgrade these other components now. The lash adjusters are the only hard part in the 3V timing system that wasn't redesigned as these showed\proved to be bulletproof.....that is IF the engine was properly serviced & a good quality oil was used.

    Your money\time in the end. Since AFAIK, Ford doesn't offer new 4.6L Modular 3V crate engines anymore so the next quick option is buying a rebuilt long block replacement engine....this in & of itself can be a much larger risk in many ways (more costly also) than properly refreshing a known good original 4.6L 3V engine regardless of the mileage on it if what you've typed here is what you're after.
     
  20. Adomis63

    Adomis63 Junior Member

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    Welp, I have a confession. I put all the timing junk back together today, phasers and everything. After fighting with the decision of having to spend the money on new followers in addition to looking at the 10-day forecast and determining I have plenty of time... I think I'll replace them. However, is there a way I can do it without removing the cams? It might take forever but that way all I'd need to do is pick em out one at a time right? I wouldn't need new phaser bolts or to remove anything.

    I understand this may not be the best option, but I also figure the less I disturb the less I can screw up lol.

    I'm starting to question if this is even the original motor with how exceptionally clean it is inside.

    Again, thank you all for your input. I really appreciate it.
     
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