S550 Mustang Suspension and Powertrain Discussion

[SoundGuyDave]

You want to see some horsepower? Looks like this guy just mashes the gas and coasts the majority of the course....and is dominating: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KC1aRHekq8Y

Forced induction

2010 NASA Nationals final race... Onboard with Chris Griswold, who DID somehow manage to take the championship ;-) Chris is a great guy, one HELL of a driver, and he competes in my region, so I'm on track with him fairly regularly. As a matter of fact, I usually get passed by Chris. Twice. In a 35-minute sprint race.

Horsepower on that car is classified, but I am led to understand that he's running just under the X,XXX mark. At that point in time, my understanding was that the motor (347 stroker, LOTS of boost) would last roughly two races (not weekends, not days, races...) before ripping the head off a valve or two and ingesting it into the turbo, and requiring wholesale replacement. Since then, the wick has been turned down, as have the valvespring pressures.

Not to take anything away from Chris, but what you see out of his on-board is a little bit of non-parity. Chris is in the lead of the AIX field, so none of them in view, and is working through the AI field, which runs under a slightly different rule set.

AIX: Partial tube-frame conversions allowed, OPEN tire rule, wheel width limited to (IIRC) either 12" or 13" max width. Power is unrestricted. Again, IIRC, Chris was running 335mm Hoosier A6 on all four corners, with Tiger Racing aero bodywork and a G-stream wing. In comparison:

AI: Strict 9.5:1 weight-power rating, usually in the 340-370HP range, limited aero treatments, and max 9.5" wheels, with spec TOYO RA-1 tires, AKA "baby's first R-compound." Treadwear rating of 100, if that helps.

Also, he was doing FAR more than just "mash the gas, and then coast." Keep an eye on the friction-circle lower/center of the screen, and watch his braking, accel and lat-G numbers. A lot of the "coasting" that you see (and there was a fair amount) was due to creating spacing for him to make a pass on corner-exit. He would have to give up a tick of speed at entry to be able to take a very late-apex line, so that he could get straight, put the power down, and NOT track all the way out and hit the car he's passing. Much different driving style than most of us are used to. He's still pulling pretty consistent 1.3-1.4 lat-G (average, not peak!), but his goal is to get straight so that he can actually use the power he has. Without the turbo, he's probably making somewhere north of 550HP at the wheels. You can't have that much steering angle in when the power comes on. With the turbo, that power comes on like a grenade going off.

Another great in-car AIX video, this one of Paul Brown. I believe that setup was all-motor, running against Ernesto Roco's boosted Ford. If you want to get a feel for what driving one of these beasts is like, check out the restart around 4:00 in, and watch what happens after he tries to drop the hammer coming off the corner passing the Factory Five Cobra...

Fun stuff!

 

[Department Of Boost]

Also, he was doing FAR more than just "mash the gas, and then coast." Keep an eye on the friction-circle lower/center of the screen, and watch his braking, accel and lat-G numbers. A lot of the "coasting" that you see (and there was a fair amount) was due to creating spacing for him to make a pass on corner-exit. He would have to give up a tick of speed at entry to be able to take a very late-apex line, so that he could get straight, put the power down, and NOT track all the way out and hit the car he's passing. Much different driving style than most of us are used to. He's still pulling pretty consistent 1.3-1.4 lat-G (average, not peak!), but his goal is to get straight so that he can actually use the power he has. Without the turbo, he's probably making somewhere north of 550HP at the wheels. You can't have that much steering angle in when the power comes on. With the turbo, that power comes on like a grenade going off.

You make it sound like it's fast or something! That thing is about 3.75lb/hp. A GSXR1000 Supersport prep bike is 1.875lb/hp and has a contact patch the size of your hand.

j/k, that AIX car is fast. I've run my car at 650rwhp on 295's/200 treadwear rated tires and it was a blast! I could bring the rear around at will!

 

[Dubstep Shep]

Yea, even my R6 was 700lbs wet with me in full gear on it and I had 120hp and I was a master at turn wheelies lol. It helped that I was so big the bike was almost vertical in turns hahaha

 

[NoTicket]

If your bike was mostly vertical then you were not going very fast.

 

[Dubstep Shep]

If your bike was mostly vertical then you were not going very fast.

Lol no one gets mostly vertical in racing on purpose. That's stunting.

But yea, the front wheel would be off the ground a little.

 

[Department Of Boost]

If your bike was mostly vertical then you were not going very fast.

Fastest way around the track is straight up and down.

 

[sheizasosay]

2010 NASA Nationals final race... Onboard with Chris Griswold, who DID somehow manage to take the championship ;-) Chris is a great guy, one HELL of a driver, and he competes in my region, so I'm on track with him fairly regularly. As a matter of fact, I usually get passed by Chris. Twice. In a 35-minute sprint race.

Horsepower on that car is classified, but I am led to understand that he's running just under the X,XXX mark. At that point in time, my understanding was that the motor (347 stroker, LOTS of boost) would last roughly two races (not weekends, not days, races...) before ripping the head off a valve or two and ingesting it into the turbo, and requiring wholesale replacement. Since then, the wick has been turned down, as have the valvespring pressures.

Another great in-car AIX video, this one of Paul Brown. I believe that setup was all-motor, running against Ernesto Roco's boosted Ford. If you want to get a feel for what driving one of these beasts is like, check out the restart around 4:00 in, and watch what happens after he tries to drop the hammer coming off the corner passing the Factory Five Cobra...


Fun stuff!

Dave, trust me man, I know Chris can drive. I did come off with a bit of "how can anybody lose with that car" and not really giving credit to driver skill. It was only to emphasize how absurd his car is. And it is absurd how much power that car has.

I have watched that video of Paul B you linked multiple times. I love it. I love all that stuff and his car sounds bbbad ass! Drives it even better than it sounds. Generally, on a daily basis, I watch some AI or AIX or a road race with cars that look like I have a chance of identifying what it is. I REALLY wish Paul would have put those videos out in hi-def. I watch stuff like that over and over. Actually I believe I have even linked Chirs G's car before too.

I love watching a good race man. One of my favorites is Dean Martin and Chris Cobetto going at it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Mmiiu7DKI4
I would start at about 32min in. I am 99% sure you have seen this. Just sharing some amazing racing. Probably would have been an even better/close race if Chris C's car didn't lose 40hp at the end. But there is always some maintenance mishap stories to championships.

It's a thing of beauty watching masterful driving. But in conclusion, it's a thing of awe watching a car like, Chris Griswold's, accelerate like it wants to go back in time. And I love all of it.

EDIT- Hey Dave, if you look at the comments on that Chris Griswold video I linked, you will see Chris mention his horsepower @psi for that day. Seems like a very low amount of psi for that high of horsepower. Think he's bullshittin' the internetz to throw out some deception for potential competition like Ernesto?

 

[Department Of Boost]

EDIT- Hey Dave, if you look at the comments on that Chris Griswold video I linked, you will see Chris mention his horsepower @psi for that day. Seems like a very low amount of psi for that high of horsepower. Think he's bullshittin' the internetz to throw out some deception for potential competition like Ernesto?

If the motor makes 550 NA, which it could, those numbers are about right. That would be one nasty small block though (302-347cu in). Back in the day I had a 306 in a Fox body that was never on the dyno but did trap at 120mph. That's 450-500hp. It was a NASTY NASTY little motor.

A 351 based small block with "Clevor" heads that displaces 420+ cu in making 550 at the wheels is really not a big deal. That combo could be pretty reliable. Making 1000 at 15psi or so is not a big deal. 420 cu in is a whole lot more than we get to play with.

 

[Department Of Boost]

Yea, even my R6 was 700lbs wet with me in full gear on it and I had 120hp and I was a master at turn wheelies lol. It helped that I was so big the bike was almost vertical in turns hahaha

You on your R6=5.83lb/hp

Me on any one of my GSXR1000's=2.63lb/hp

You need bigger bikes!

 

[Dubstep Shep]

If the motor makes 550 NA, which it could, those numbers are about right. That would be one nasty small block though (302-347cu in). Back in the day I had a 306 in a Fox body that was never on the dyno but did trap at 120mph. That's 450-500hp. It was a NASTY NASTY little motor.

A 351 based small block with "Clevor" heads that displaces 420+ cu in making 550 at the wheels is really not a big deal. That combo could be pretty reliable. Making 1000 at 15psi or so is not a big deal. 420 cu in is a whole lot more than we get to play with.

As they say, there's no replacement for displacement. Except not really lol.

The guy who built my motor, Mike Henson of Henson Racing engines, has a motor in his car that's around 480ci, I can't remember exactly, but he's making over 1000 on motor alone. Another 1200 on spray.

Isn't Ford advertising 500hp on an advanced version of the coyote in like 2017?

They already claim 500 plus on this guy:
http://www.fordracingparts.com/parts/part_details.asp?PartKeyField=23300

 

[Dubstep Shep]

You on your R6=5.83lb/hp



Me on any one of my GSXR1000's=2.63lb/hp



You need bigger bikes!

Lol that thing would still outrun Lambos lol.

Really I want two motorcycles: a Harley Davidson Night Rod with a supercharger for daily riding with about 200-250rwhp. And then I want a R1 with a supercharger, which is about 250rwhp for the track hehehehe.

What was the power and weight on your GSXR?

 

[Department Of Boost]

The guy who built my motor, Mike Henson of Henson Racing engines, has a motor in his car that's around 480ci, I can't remember exactly, but he's making over 1000 on motor alone. Another 1200 on spray.

That motor wouldn't last 20 min on the track.....without the spray. It probably wouldn't last 5min.

Isn't Ford advertising 500hp on an advanced version of the coyote in like 2017?

550 for the VooDoo motor.......at the crank. Lots of RPM's and big $$$$.

 

[Department Of Boost]

Lol that thing would still outrun Lambos lol

No it wouldn't.

Really I want two motorcycles: a Harley Davidson Night Rod with a supercharger for daily riding with about 200-250rwhp.

If I wanted to ride on the street, and I don't. The Night Rod would be at the top of my list. Or a Busa.

And then I want a R1 with a supercharger, which is about 250rwhp for the track hehehehe.

It would never stay together. I've seen a few guys (roadracers) bring turbo'd bikes out for the fun of it. All of them were grenades.

What was the power and weight on your GSXR?

Which one? I've had at least 20 of them!

Most of them were in the 365-375lb range and 195-200hp. I did have one with all the goodies that was 352lb and made 207. That sucker was a rocket!


When I was racing I was 145lb. That helps.

 

[Dubstep Shep]

Idk man. I've seen one of the supercharged R1s. They make pretty damn reliable power. It goes from around 170-180hp on pump to 250 on race fuel. That isn't a huge jump, and it only takes a few pounds boost.

 

[Department Of Boost]

Idk man. I've seen one of the supercharged R1s. They make pretty damn reliable power. It goes from around 170-180hp on pump to 250 on race fuel. That isn't a huge jump, and it only takes a few pounds boost.

On the road race track? Nope.

Riding around on the street, popping wheelies or doing 1/4mi passes is one thing. The road course may as well be the moon in comparison.

Besides, what would you do with 250hp on the roadrace track? You couldn't exploit a stock GSXR1000 at your riding level. No offense, it is what it is though. Until you are within 1-2sec of the lap record a Supersport prep is more than enough bike. HP won't drop your lap times. Tires, suspension, skill and seat time will though.

 

[csamsh]

So...blink and it turns into...a hybrid S550/NASA/bike forum???

 

[Dubstep Shep]

So...blink and it turns into...a hybrid S550/NASA/bike forum???

Haha fair enough. We'll continue the bike tangent elsewhere!

 

[sheizasosay]

If the motor makes 550 NA, which it could, those numbers are about right. That would be one nasty small block though (302-347cu in). Back in the day I had a 306 in a Fox body that was never on the dyno but did trap at 120mph. That's 450-500hp. It was a NASTY NASTY little motor.

A 351 based small block with "Clevor" heads that displaces 420+ cu in making 550 at the wheels is really not a big deal. That combo could be pretty reliable. Making 1000 at 15psi or so is not a big deal. 420 cu in is a whole lot more than we get to play with.

How did you tune it if you didn't put it on the dyno? Did you have a wideband and a handheld or something?

I'm not trying to say Chris G's horsepower level is anything that would impress a drag racer. But keeping that kind of power to last in a race that's greater than a mile is another animal.

I'm probably more easily impressed with this kind of stuff than you. I'm sure you've seen a fair bit more than me.

 

[Department Of Boost]

So...blink and it turns into...a hybrid S550/NASA/bike forum???

Buncha fast guys round here, don't blink!

 

[Department Of Boost]

How did you tune it if you didn't put it on the dyno? Did you have a wideband and a handheld or something?

This was 22yrs ago my man. It had a carb and I did a lot of guessing.

I'm not trying to say Chris G's horsepower level is anything that would impress a drag racer. But keeping that kind of power to last in a race that's greater than a mile is another animal.

Oh, it's impressive. It's not magic though. Just a lot of work/$$$$.

I'm probably more easily impressed with this kind of stuff than you. I'm sure you've seen a fair bit more than me.

I'm a bit jaded yes. But I still think all this stuff is awesome.