Tire recommendations? weekend cruising/autocross

Discussion in 'Corner Carver Racing Tech Discussion' started by Blk06GT, Jan 7, 2022.

  1. Blk06GT

    Blk06GT Junior Member

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    2006 GT 400whp. Looking to do some autocross this year. Currently have 7 or 8 year old Nitto NT555 on the car so they need to be replaced (are basically rocks at this point). Obviously autocross specific wheels/comp tire would be ideal but that’s not in the cards right now. Want something that will be sticky enough for a few autocross or track day events but also want to be able take the car on the Power Tour, or weekend road trip without having to buy a new set of tires halfway through. Anyone have any experience with the NT05 compared to the NT555? Any other recommendations?

    Cars been sitting in the garage past couple years with hardly any use, want to get back out enjoying it again.
     
  2. EBABlacknChrome

    EBABlacknChrome forum member

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    Michelin pilot super sports are great for track and street. So depending on how hard you plan on pushing the car but these tires should last for maybe 3 track days, and plenty of cruises and maybe more. The indy 500 tires are a nice choice as well for a lot less money. Tires you listed on have no experience with. I have Continental extreme sport tires now that have also been great for track and street as well.

    Sent from my SM-G996U using Tapatalk
     
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  3. Racer47

    Racer47 Doesn't have much to say S197 Team Member

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  4. Blk06GT

    Blk06GT Junior Member

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    That’s a great article! Thanks.
     
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  5. AHaze

    AHaze Member

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    If regular high performance tires are turning hard before you wear them out then there's little reason not to step up to 200 TW rubber. Regularly having to drive the car in wet conditions would be the only thing that would make me think twice.
     
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  6. Juice

    Juice forum member

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    Falken Azenis 615 or the new 660. If you can find them and in the size you need. I was going to get the 660s to try them. I got a set of the 615K on the fox. 420 rwhp. I have run these at Watkins Glen, so yea, they work. Excelent in the rain too. Dont expect them to last for much more than 10k.
    https://www.falkentire.com/tires/passenger-car-tires/azenis-rt660-tire
     
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  7. SVT Rider

    SVT Rider Member

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    This! Safest tire for usage across the board: track/autocross and summer road. The Michelin Super Sports were replaced with the Pilot Sport 4S (they wanted to keep with a consistent naming across their tire segments). The Pilot Sport 4S are superb in the rain. They don't need warming up like a R-comp which is ideal for Autocross.

    Another option that is a favorite among autocross is the Bridgestone RE-71R, but those are often size limited for wider Mustang sizes. They favor the Miata and smaller cars with their sizing options.
     
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  8. Mach2burnout

    Mach2burnout 05 Redfire GT

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    Get one of these and don’t look back!
    Anyone who says Michelin SS’s are good for auto x, would love these Falkens.

    The Michelins are expensive burnout tires. Just my opinion of course.

    Top one is Falkin Azenis RT 615K+ and is very streetable and very good for auto x.

    The bottom one is the Falken Azenis RT 660 and is the best auto x tire out there, hands down that is a streetable tire.


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    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
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  9. Blk06GT

    Blk06GT Junior Member

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    Reading some reviews I’m liking those Falkens. Wheels are 9.5x18 front 10.5x18 rear. Looks like they have some sizes that would work on tirerack.

    Car is not my daily and it’s unlikely it will see much rain. Unless i get caught in a surprise Florida downpour, if the forecast is wet I won’t take it out. The silver lining of having a kid hauler haha
     
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  10. Juice

    Juice forum member

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    The 615s are superb in the rain I have run them at wet HPDE events. ;)
    They will "flat spot" sitting in the garage if parked for extended periods, they are that soft. And they thump for a mile or two and smooth out. But they can also stand up to the cold,where an NT01 would crack from cold. (Warning is on the labels about this)
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2022
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  11. Mach2burnout

    Mach2burnout 05 Redfire GT

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    Get you two more 10.5” wheels for the front and go 295/40/18 all around. Provided you have the right offset and backspacing they will clear with no problem.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
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  12. Vorshlag-Fair

    Vorshlag-Fair Official Site Vendor Official Vendor

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    As someone who has been autocrossing for over 30 years, and doing competitive events on "200TW" tires since 2004, I might have a new perspective to add to the conversation.

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    What the OP wants to do with one set of tires are two different, competing things with the same set of tires: Street Driving and Autocrossing

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    That is a massive compromise for any tire, as to be good at one will make it poor in the other. Competitive 200TW tires are generally quick to heat up to temp, fast wearing, and sometimes (well, often times) poorly riding street tires. Some of them are pretty sketchy in the rain, too.

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    Of course you can always drive "anything" on the street, if you don't care about wear, reliability, wet weather safety, etc. I've driven on Hoosiers in the rain on the street, but it isn't something I would ever recommend to anyone. Of course with the Optima series we end up driving on the latest sticky "street" tires for 50+ miles to prove they are "street cars" at these events, but almost all of the competitive cars in that series get brand new sets of tires for EVERY event.

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    We have also done our own tire tests for street tire autocross classes in S197s, but the "hot tire" changes from season to season, class to class, and is often wheel / size dependent. In a perfect world the OP would have at least TWO sets of wheels - his street set and his faster autocross set that NEVER sees needless heat cycles or street use. Being competitive in a 200TW street tire class is a game that involves spending lots of money, trying different wheel widths / diameters, and chasing the latest hot tire in the biggest size your class allows. That is an expensive game... I learned that in our S197 in 2010-12 and in our STU car from 2004-08.

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    Now we're obviously not here to try to sell the OP on the merits of which tire is most COMPETITIVE for autocross, as he doesn't even have the right sized wheels for his car nor the budget to change that at the moment. What he needs is a tire that is the best at doing BOTH. Luckily we've tested some of the "harder" 200TW tires and even some of the better 300TW tires, which are more appropriate for what the OP needs: decent street manners and wear + something sporty for autocross use.

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    First up is the Michelin PSS / PS4 / 300TW sporty tire of the month for this brand. We've beat on these on track and even done a couple of autocrosses on this tire and it works pretty well, deals with heat, and wears great for street use. On the very heavy / narrowly tired Focus RS above it was abused and overheated and understeered to the point that it chunked off the tread, but it lasted a whole season before doing this. On a back-to-back test I performed that day, it was 2.5 sec/lap quicker going from 235mm Michelins to 275mm RE-71R Bridgestones, which is a big jump on a 90 sec course... but that switch involved the driver getting a tire trailer and a 2nd set of wheels to take to events and change onto there, as the RE-71R is a fast wearer (and NO LONGER MADE). The Michelin is made in a LOT of sizes but it is a tick pricey on the front end.

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    The only other tire I'd recommend for "dual duty" use is the 200TW Hankook Ventus RS-4. I've driven this on a couple of cars, including our C6 above. These are a bit faster than the 300TW Michelin above, but wears like stone. Both the RS-4 and the Michelin 300TW tires take a lap or two to "Switch on" but then put in consistent lap times from there until eternity.

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    All of the Nitto / Toyo tires sold are hot garbage and should be avoided if you care at all about wear + performance. I am not making this claim lightly, as I have competed on / driven on / and tested with virtually every option these two companies have. They. Just. Suck. They are cheap and come in a lot of sizes, so people flock to them... out of ignorance or apathy. People who know never use these two brands.

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    Something hotter like the Yoko A052 / RE-71R / RT-660 are faster on the first 1-2 laps then fall off quickly. I've got a lot of laps on these hotter 200TW tires, but they are NOT appropriate for dual purpose use, and not what the OP needs.

    Cheers!
     
  13. Juice

    Juice forum member

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    Nitto NT01 are not garbage. But we have been through this before.
    You keep forgetting the one fact, we are hobby-ists.
    You keep coming in here posting from a professional race team perspective.
    I like how you missed the NT01s, or they are Nitto so they are crap?
     
  14. Vorshlag-Fair

    Vorshlag-Fair Official Site Vendor Official Vendor

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    Nitto AND Toyo tires ARE crap. Meaning: they tend to have worse wear and grip vs their costs, making the cost/performance "ratios" out of wack. THE ONLY PEOPLE WHO RUN THESE JUST DO NOT KNOW ANY BETTER. I have seen this many times - once drivers get away from these tire brands and try better tire models, they eventually learn - especially if they even remotely care about lap times. If you are just driving around making noise, then ignore this advice.

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    I don't sell tires and have ZERO vested interest in you accepting this or not. I've run on many sets of Toyo and Nitto tires, in competition as well as "fun HPDE" use (I even won that Optima autocross above right on NT-05 tires - despite them being utter garbage. Worst tire I've ever won anything on!)

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    The fact is that the 100 TW NT-01/R1R/R888R/RR tires just DO NOT perform as well as tires with double the treadware rating. I have data to back this up. You can listen and learn from others that have "been there / done that" or you can go against this hard earned experience, it is up to you. Some folks need to learn these lessons the hard way - I get it.

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    And this isn't from a "pro race team" perspective, this is from a cheap-ass autocrosser and grass roots time trial competitor, which is what I am at heart. ;) Tires are our NUMBER ONE consumable cost in all forms of motorsport, even at the hobbyist HPDE level. Giving money to Toyo or Nitto tire companies, if it isn't mandated due to a spec series they have BOUGHT, is just poor decision making. Sorry.

    Cheers!
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2022
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  15. Mach2burnout

    Mach2burnout 05 Redfire GT

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    Terry this is all probably true at this time. The 200 TW tires have made many advances, and are probably only 200TW because they are stamped as such! IMO. I’d bet if truly tested side by side with 100TW tires they are actually just 100TW tires.

    But I ran NT-01s at a few years back and there weren’t any DOT tires that could touch them, that anybody was talking about. Now that was autox only, no street driving. Put them on and trailer to the event. I got a lot of runs out of them. I have Falkens on it now 200Tw and honestly they feel as good as the NT-01s did. But different, if that makes sense. As good or better cornering, but quite as good on forward grip.

    Just my take from a truly budget conscious autox er.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  16. Vorshlag-Fair

    Vorshlag-Fair Official Site Vendor Official Vendor

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    Fair enough. Just remember that his is a "DOT tire", too... ;)

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    And the NT-01 has been around a REALLY long time... this article from 2005 came out when this tire was relatively new. That is 17 years ago. Even back then there were DOT tires that could put the hurt on the NT-01, but not many. Since then....

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    I remember entering autocross and Time Trials in that era, and there were some folks setting class records in NASA TT on the NT-01, but even with the Hoosier R7 penalized heavily these old records fell quickly when the classes got even remotely competitive. I haven't seen an even regional TT win on an NT-01 since 2006 or 2007... After that period we even set some TTA records on 180TW Yokohama AD07 tires (the EVO X above) against people on NT-01s, and didn't get any additional handicap over the Nittos. Those AD07s were considerably slower than even the recent Bridgestone RE-71R or the current Yokohama A052 "200" TW tires.

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    In the 2018-2019 seasons we sponsored a series of trophies/classes to try to bring the modern 200 TW tires into NASA Time Trial. This was done in the Texas NASA region, which is fairly big region and tends to bring home some Nationals wins.

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    We had about 60 different cars over 2 seasons compete in these "street tire" classes and a LOT of good data was gathered. I ran my 2018 GT in the class, with 200TW tires on Saturday (Re-71R) competitions and Hoosier R7/A7 tires on Sundays, to get some good Street Tire vs Hoosier comparisons over the same weekend.

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    Above is a page from the 2022 rulebook for NASA ST / TT classes. Using this street tire vs Hoosier data plus a lot more tire testing, NASA National office decided to re-vamp their modifiers for NASA ST & TT classing, and they lumped the various "non-Hoosier" tires into two new tire handicap categories, shown above. I am bringing this home, trust me!

    The Faster "200" treadwear tires are given a +1.0 handicap bonus in their power-to-weight ratios over a Hoosier R7, which is a healthy but accurate bump. The Slower "200" TW tires - and all of the 100TW Nittos and Toyos - were lumped into a category with an even bigger handicap bonus of +1.6 - fully 60% more handicap. That means that their data showed that the NT-01/R1R/R888R/R888/RA-1/RR were in the slowest category of tires they bother to handicap. Lumped in the same category as the Michelin Pilot Sport 4S, which is a 300 TW true street tire that OEMs use a lot. Sadly, the NT-01 wears far worse than most in that list, but hey, that's why I am not a Nitto fan.

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    Long story short - a racing organization that has tens of thousands of members (NASA), who has done many hundreds if not thousands of hours of competition tire testing, now lumps the NT-01 into the absolute slowest category of tires rated for use on track. Because.... well, the data shows that they are pretty dang slow. Again, this is a tire that came out in 2004-2005. This is not "HPDE fun rated", or even price:wear or price:grip rated (what I tried to quantify), but just SLOW against the clock rated. This isn't just Terry's opinion, its now the rules in the largest Time Trial organization on the planet - from a group that values testing and data above all else.

    Cheers,
     
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  17. Mustang Terlingua

    Mustang Terlingua Junior Member

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    I love Hoosiers $R6D2JRD.jpg on track & Michelin Pilot Sport 4S on my '08 Bullitt on the street.
     
  18. Mach2burnout

    Mach2burnout 05 Redfire GT

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    Now there’s the “Terry the contributor” that we all loved to read his posts! That posts real world data that we can use to make educated choices rather than trial and error!

    Not the “Nittos are crap because Terry says so…” Terry.

    I don’t think you intend to come off as arrogant, but some times you do. I love to read informative posts from people who have been there and done that. But, I won’t read it if it is written in with with an err of arrogance.

    I spoke to you on a phone a few years back and got advice on racing seats that I ultimately purchased from Vorshlag, I got nothing from you but good advice from a fellow racer.

    It’d be great to get that same kind of advice here.

    Cheers back at ya!


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
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  19. Racer47

    Racer47 Doesn't have much to say S197 Team Member

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    I don't think he comes off as arrogant at all. I think its just the frustration of hearing the same bad/incomplete/misleading info over and over and then trying to correct it and ending up with lengthy debates.

    I think its just an internet thing. I've raced forever, motocross, GT1, GTO, super lates and when I'm at the race track and someone asks for advice, they don't argue with you because you just smoked them and they are looking for a bit of help. There is a certain amount of built in respect at the racetrack that you just don't get online.

    And its not “Nittos are crap because Terry says so…” Its Nittos are crap period. I'm always surprised when people stick up for them.

    Here's a pic of the hardware I've collected in the past 3 summers of high speed autox, on 315/335 A7's. A few guys do show up on NT01's and they are never competitive.
    hardware.jpg
     
  20. Vorshlag-Fair

    Vorshlag-Fair Official Site Vendor Official Vendor

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    Yes, it is definitely an internet thing, and a HUGE amount of frustration for HAVING to "show my homework" every time the same question gets asked again and again. And again.

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    I've been doing this for a long, long time. Started autocrossing and time trial events in the late 1980s. I've thrown away hundreds of trophies, just got tired of moving them. Blah blah blah, nobody cares.

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    But when you have racked up 100s of wins, set dozens of class track records, and bought too many sets of tires to count - you DO learn things. I'm not just repeating some random internet advice. I have to make my posts detailed otherwise with the churn of new users, nobody remembers that some of us have a lot more experience than others.

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    Again, I don't sell tires. I don't even sell wheels anymore. I have nothing to gain or lose if you follow my tire advice. You can learn from my testing and competition on dozens of tire brands and models, or you can follow the advice of slower people, it is your choice. :D

    Cheers!
     
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