tune or something else?

[Juice]

Log fuel trims too. STFT and LTFTs.

 

[pass1over]

It's been awhile since I messed around with tuning my other car, are those supposed to be as close to 0 or 1 as possible? Cant really remember what the correct range for fuel trims should be.

 

[Juice]

The upstream narrow band O2 sensors should be constantly changing from like .1 to .9volts while cruising, idling. Full throttle should they should stay up around .9v.

 

[pass1over]

This is coyote motor, upstream o2s are wideband I thought

 

[Juice]

Ahh, my bad. They should be switching from 0-5 volts. Same as narrow bands, just higher voltage. They should never be stuck at a certain voltage. I should log mine as I dont recall the actual range they run.
I log fuel trims, STFT specifically. Those reflect what the pcm is doing based on O2 feedback, and should stay around Zero swinging +/- a few percent. If there is an O2 issue, STFT on the affected bank wont be moving at all.
It almost sounds like you are stuck in open loop.

 

[pass1over]

true, i'll set it up to log STFT and verify I had the upstream o2's
I was thinking/hoping to see it stuck in OL, but when I log Fuel 1, it shows CL status

 

[Juice]

I dont pay much attention to the ol/cl status.
Coyote runs in closed loop just about all the time, except for a few seconds after cold startup. Even WOT it stays in closed loop and uses the upstream sensors to control AFR.

 

[GlassTop09]

Question: Did the car those plugs came out of actually run???

Yes sir it ran better than most would think....never set off any codes, none, nada, ziltch. No flashing MIL's to indicate dead misses that would've triggered the PCM to do FSO on the missing cylinder(s) to activate COT protection. Car idled OK & would actually run Ok until you actually pushed it (load% up high enough to force the spark to break\blow out). Testament to just how strong the FoMoCo coils are & as long as the spark energy goes thru the plug wire core & past the core resistor the PCM can't determine that the coil\plug misfired (PCM uses 2 PID checks instead of 1 to determine a real misfire, 1 PID is checking the CKP sensor only for relative CKP velocity pattern fluctuations across all cylinders, 1 PID is checking the coil\plug thru the primary wiring during dwell\firing\secondary burn pattern as you would see under an oscilloscope trace....for a true misfire to occur BOTH PIDs have to agree, if the CKP shows a velocity variation but the coils\plugs dwell\firing\secondary burn pattern shows no misfire then the PCM records the variation but also records no misfire, thus why the 65,655 CKP threshold as more than a plug misfire can cause a CKP velocity variation to occur....such as varying AFR from slow O2 sensor feedback for an example). Also keep in mind that a 4.6L V8 by definition is a low compression engine vs a Coyote which is high compression...easier for a bad plug to still fire under low compression.......

 

[Juice]

Yes sir it ran better than most would think....never set off any codes, none, nada, ziltch. No flashing MIL's to indicate dead misses that would've triggered the PCM to do FSO on the missing cylinder(s) to activate COT protection. Car idled OK & would actually run Ok until you actually pushed it (load% up high enough to force the spark to break\blow out. Testament to just how strong the FoMoCo coils are & as long as the spark energy goes thru the plug wire core & past the core resistor the PCM can't determine that the coil\plug misfired (PCM uses 2 PID checks instead of 1 to determine a real misfire, 1 PID is checking the CKP sensor only for relative CKP velocity pattern fluctuations across all cylinders, 1 PID is checking the coil\plug thru the primary wiring during dwell\firing\secondary burn pattern as you would see under an oscilloscope trace....for a true misfire to occur BOTH PIDs have to agree, if the CKP shows a velocity variation but the coils\plugs dwell\firing\secondary burn pattern shows no misfire then the PCM records the variation but also records no misfire, thus why the 65,655 CKP threshold as more than a plug misfire can cause a CKP velocity variation to occur....such as varying AFR from slow O2 sensor feedback for an example). Also keep in mind that a 4.6L V8 by definition is a low compression engine vs a Coyote which is high compression...easier for a bad plug to still fire under low compression.......

Was this a truck by chance? I have been told some ford trucks do not set misfire codes for some reason. Thats what my inspection station told me about my van. Must get tailpipe sniffer test if not exempt. Which sucks, as noone has the old machines. Well, they are around, but not functional. So I must keep mine exempt.

 

[GlassTop09]

My car was built 8/11, so RA says I should use DY1185 instead of DY1165. They're only $79/each and the Bosch 17321 is $54.
I have heard the idea that the o2's that Bosch makes for Ford might be tighter specs/tolerances than what they would sell under their own name brand. $50 total difference in price, guess it's not really that much.

Man, those plugs are beyond gone. Running on only 3 of the 8 cylinders huh?

Actually ran on all 8 cylinders......only clue that showed any insight to this was the Mode 6 Self Check misfire monitor last count data & a FORScan idle data log showing STFT's adding fuel once PCM went into CL from OL (which is wrong since in OL PCM is applying fuel enrichment so STFT's should've went - instead of +) & bouncing LTFT's across both banks (which is also wrong, LTFT's should be static)...but the Mode 6 numbers never counted past 10-15 counts on any individual cylinder during any completed drive cycle & all cylinders showed some count variation between 1-15....not near enough data to isolate bad plugs since other issues can cause this exact same pattern...like slow, erratic O2 sensor feedback causing fluctuating AFR. I have data posted in another thread to show all this in more detail.

This is why you have to sometimes test everything in process to narrow the potential causes down to the actual cause w\o throwing parts at it, even if you think a certain component isn't the cause.....because it just may be so until you do the actual tests to rule it out you're still making assumptions....some call this guessing & is irrespective of how long tenured or how well an individual's knowledge base is. You know the old adage....."even a busted clock is right twice a day".

So I ran the test I've mentioned on the B1S1, B2S1 O2 sensor actual voltage output during a cold start (scan tool hooked up, set up & monitoring before initial start up of car during cold start to capture all of it) anyway even though there wasn't any MIL's thrown on them to suspect them, actually SAW them thus verifying them not operating properly which now gave merit to ALL the data I saw\recorded prior, which after rectifying this issue to remove them from the picture (which means that I repeated the same test on the replacement O2 sensors to verify them being good so not assumed good) I then moved on later to pull the plugs afterwards which is what you now see in the pictures. I also have a 8-channel oscilloscope on hand to use if this simple scan tool O2 sensor test showed inconclusive results but the scan tool test data results proved that I didn't need to use it but I was prepared to go full monty to verify component operation before going onto something else.

Why I posted earlier for you to run this test is due to me seeing the potential for your O2 sensors to be a cause was due to the info you posted....including their length of service...these parts do degrade over time so IMHO must be verified....along w\ my own experiences & knowledge...to ensure they aren't the problem before spending any money.

 

[GlassTop09]

Was this a truck by chance? I have been told some ford trucks do not set misfire codes for some reason. Thats what my inspection station told me about my van. Must get tailpipe sniffer test if not exempt. Which sucks, as noone has the old machines. Well, they are around, but not functional. So I must keep mine exempt.

Nope, it was my '09 Mustang GT w\ it's 4.6L V8 in NA trim w\ some mods....no truck version of 4.6L V8. It was thru using FORScan software that I discovered this was the case w\ my car's PCM concerning the misfire strategy. Now my PCM will set misfire codes but the P030x DTC's are only set due to excessive CKP velocity variation pattern vs the other cylinders pattern comparison only, NOT necessarily due to an actual coil\plug misfire. So when you see these P030x DTC's don't just assume that this is only plug related (injectors, wiring including bad grounds, PCM drivers, valve train components like failed cam followers\lash adjusters or leaking valve seats, coil springs\boots, O2 sensors, failing CKP sensor, loose CKP trigger wheel, bad harmonic balancer, bad alternator, etc can set off CKP variation offset patterns as well....) just because this data is labeled as "misfire data". Been here, done that........

PS---just now remembered that somewhat normal\abnormal VCT operation can cause momentary CKP velocity variation since this does change actual cylinder pressure buildup so keep this in mind as well---

Tis also why it's very important for 05-10 owners using SO PCM's to perform the Misfire Monitor 60-40 DFCO training after any KAM reset to fully enable the misfire monitors then check Mode 6 data afterwards to ensure that it took or you'll get bad Mode 6 data (PCM shows all 0 counts making you think all is OK.......).

I know this 1st hand......

 

[Juice]

So the misfire monitor relearn clears misfire counts? Cause I have not found a way to clear those. Not even an IDS complete reflash lol.

 

[GlassTop09]

The only true test of an O2 sensor for proper output operation is to test it's actual mV output (NB) or mA output (WB) from being cold thru to being full hot & the only practical way w\o going full scientific to do this is during a full cold start cycle using the OL to CL transition status to truly validate what you'll see thru the PCM's STFT operation pattern. The sensors are considered fully functional\accurate when the operating temps exceed 500*F (most O2 sensor heater circuits should be able to reach & maintain 600*F to the sensor's elements w\o any assistance from engine exhaust heat to maintain sensor operation\accuracy). This means that the O2's should be putting out voltage or current in reaction to the O2% in exhaust gasses well before the PCM switches from OL to CL....depending on the tune O2 sensor target temp & status transition delay time settings allowing enough time span for this to be seen.

The rear O2 sensors aren't even being monitored by the PCM during this time.....they're looked at once the cats past the min light off temp of 450*F thru the rear O2 sensor's heater circuits (the inferred CMBT reading you see in the Mode 6 Misfire Monitor data) data then exceed 900*F operating temp after entering CL status so ignore these during cold start test of the front O2 sensors...........

FYI............

 

[GlassTop09]

So the misfire monitor relearn clears misfire counts? Cause I have not found a way to clear those. Not even an IDS complete reflash lol.

No it doesn't clear them...it will never actually count them until the MM 60-40 DFCO training has successfully completed. PS--this is the training that the PCM uses to learn the CKP trigger wheel & any normal CKP variation between applying load% vs engine pumping variation during non combustion so engine can't be misfiring while performing this training. I know you know this but putting this here for info purposes. Also just remembered that when a KAM reset is done on a SO PCM, this data in Mode 6 is cleared....any data that is in Mode 9 or 10 is still there......but most can't see that data unless using something such as IDS....

How I caught this is by looking at the Mode 6 MM data that records the CMBT data after a training session. If you only see -40*F data for all cat checks along w\ all 0's for all other Mode 6 MM data, this is indication that the MM 60-40 DFCO training either hasn't been done or it didn't complete successfully for some reason....usually due to not getting the MPH fully past 60 MPH to initiate the training sequence, hitting the clutch, brake or accel pedal during the DFCO period between 60 to 40 MPH or not allowing the MPH to fully drop below 40 MPH at any time during the 3 required cycles to complete it. Speedo accuracy can affect this as well so I have started going to 5 MPH above\under to compensate for any speedo inaccuracies (using 65 to 35 instead of 60 to 40) to improve consistency of completion.

This is where Coyotes\Copperhead PCM's using manual crank relearn can\could come into play but since I don't have 1st hand knowledge of this w\ this platform I can't say for sure....but w\ the Spanish Oaks PCM I do.

Hope this helps.

 

[Juice]

I have done crank relearn on the copperhead (for a different reason) and my misfire monitors did not reset. I don't really worry about it, more of a curiosity into the inner workings of the code.

 

[pass1over]

checked my scanner again, there are two sets of o2s to monitor

These two are in volts
O2B1S2
O2B2S2

These two are in mA
O2S11
OSS21

I know the S2 are the downstream NB's, but why are the upstream ones read as mA? I'm assuming those are the upstream ones.

Watched my STFT1 and STFT2, neither stayed at 0. You say a few %, what variation is acceptable while driving, idling, etc?

 

[Juice]

checked my scanner again, there are two sets of o2s to monitor

These two are in volts
O2B1S2
O2B2S2

These two are in mA
O2S11
OSS21

I know the S2 are the downstream NB's, but why are the upstream ones read as mA? I'm assuming those are the upstream ones.

Watched my STFT1 and STFT2, neither stayed at 0. You say a few %, what variation is acceptable while driving, idling, etc?

The ones with mA, that is heater current, not sensor output. You may not be able to view it if it isnt "mapped".

STFTs swing on average 10% range. As in +/- 5% is good.occasional spikes OK, like on decel/engine braking. This is essentially what the O2 sensors telling the pcm. So if the STFTs are active, the O2 sensors must be working.
Now, what are the LTfTs doing? These also swing, just a bit slower.

 

[pass1over]

STFTs were staying in that range, it would get in the 5-6% range sometimes while sitting at idle.

I will watch the LTFTs next time. Can only have so many items on the screen.

Occasionally, the RPMs will dip down while sitting at a light, no throttle input, foot's on the brake. But I haven't had the tuner hooked up when it did this. It also seems to hesitate a bit right off throttle.

I'm going to check the MAF again, check for vacuum leaks again, pull the plugs, and check exhaust for leaks. Just gotta finish up the 3g alternator swap into my '66 so I can get it off the lift.

 

[pass1over]

LTFT's did change, more slowly, as they should. They were always a negative number, and something that I thought was weird was that B2 was always half of what B1 was. so, B1 would be -0.830, and B2 would be -0.415, for example

 

[Juice]

LTFT's did change, more slowly, as they should. They were always a negative number, and something that I thought was weird was that B2 was always half of what B1 was. so, B1 would be -0.830, and B2 would be -0.415, for example

LTFT is not bad at all. I have about the same b1 to b2 difference. Overall the tune is on the rich side by a few %. No concerns there.