What would YOU do for an engine build in my situation?

[Dino Dino Bambino]

For anyone interested in the build, I have decided on a crank. Thanks to another member commenting on another post pointing out the max safe rpm of each stroke available (assuming 5,000ft per min is a safe piston speed).

That was me in your other thread. Here's what I quoted:

Your real limiting factor is going to be piston speed. A longer stroke will necessitate a lower rev limit in order to keep the mean piston speed to no more than 5000ft/minute (what the best all forged bottom end production engines are achieving).

3.80" stroke = 7900rpm
3.75" stroke = 8000rpm
3.65" stroke = 8200rpm (MMR 4.75L stroker crank which is modified Coyote crank)
3.54" stroke = 8500rpm (stock stroke of Modular 4.6)

Therefore your best bet would be to use a Ford Performance Boss 5.0 iron block for its larger 3.70" cylinder bore size in order to maximize valve area and head flow without valve shrouding, while using a stock 3.54" stroke forged crank e.g. '03-'04 Cobra Terminator unit.
The highest revving production (and race) engines are generally "oversquare" with a bigger bore and a shorter stroke. The aforementioned combination will yield a cylinder displacement of 304.8ci or 4994cc (5.0L), which is the same as Ford's famous 5.0L Cammer engines except the Cammer was built on a sleeved Modular aluminium block.

Since you've decided to go with the MMR 4.75 crank (same 3.65" stroke as Coyote and almost identical to 3.66" stroke of the 8200rpm 5.2L Voodoo), I think you now know where your maximum rpm will need to be.

Ideally you'll want the biggest bore possible, which is why I initially suggested the Boss 5.0 Modular iron block. Otherwise you'd be stuck with a 3.572" bore (+0.020" overbored 4.6L block) that'll shroud the valves of Livernois stage 3 CNC ported 3V heads and hobble head flow.

As for the choice of compression ratio, that'll depend on the grade of fuel you'll want to run when boosted. If it's 93 octane pump gas, I'd suggest sticking with something close to the stock 9.8.

Your other limiting factor is going to be the valve train. The phasers will need to be locked out completely or you'll need to go for 2V cam sprockets instead. You'd also need custom cams.

 

[MrBhp]

Speaking of high revving mod motors....

 

[Juice]

"Only reason the 3v performs so good in comparison is more modern tuning and vct plays a big role."

You say this after you said you are locking out the cams and doing away with vct. WTF

 

[Thatblack03]

Ideally you'll want the biggest bore possible, which is why I initially suggested the Boss 5.0 Modular iron block. Otherwise you'd be stuck with a 3.572" bore (+0.020" overbored 4.6L block) that'll shroud the valves of Livernois stage 3 CNC ported 3V heads and hobble head flow.

So would I be better off just getting the heads ported while keeping the original size valves? I really don't want to bore this block more than .020 over. I did see some badazz wet sleeves for a 5.3 stroker setup the other day on YT. I think his bore was 3.700 if I'm remembering correctly.

That'd be a little hard for me to have done though, there's only 2 machine shops near me and one doesn't even do sleeves. The other has a months long wait list.

I wonder how much "shrouding" would affect the power? Reading about it on an LS forum a few minutes ago, they run valves that have a pretty close valve to cylinder wall clearance. That's apples to oranges however and may be completely different for us mod guys.

"with the 23* heads I have always shot for a minimum of 0.100" preferably 0.125'' from valve edge to combustion chamber wall... I think that as the valve lift gets greater it becomes less important,,, others may well have better ideas than this and I may have been doing it wrong for many years lol"

I appreciate ya making sure I account for everything, I wouldn't have even gave this a glance had you not mentioned it.

As for the cam gears, I'd mentioned earlier I'm probably gonna try to use the 6.8 3v gears. Non VCT and should bolt in fine.

 

[Thatblack03]

"Only reason the 3v performs so good in comparison is more modern tuning and vct plays a big role."

You say this after you said you are locking out the cams and doing away with vct. WTF

Well yeah, even a mild cam requires phasers to be locked or limited at a minimum. Anything with a bigger lift has to be fully locked out. I'm not worried about them anyways, they did help control the torque curve, but just another thing to go wrong. Phasers are notoriously problematic on 3v engines.

 

[Thatblack03]

Speaking of high revving mod motors....

That thing is sweet!

 

[JC SSP]

My first question would be how fast do you want to go, and what do you intend on doing with the car (street, strip, track, show, etc.) and more importantly how much money do you have… not trying to be a jerk but this is essential because it sets reasonable goals & objectives within budgetary constraints.

 

[Thatblack03]

My first question would be how fast do you want to go, and what do you intend on doing with the car (street, strip, track, show, etc.) and more importantly how much money do you have… not trying to be a jerk but this is essential because it sets reasonable goals & objectives within budgetary constraints.

Well, I want to be able to daily it during the summer and be able to put the slicks on and run a decent time at the track every so often. I live a couple miles from a nice Quarter Mile dragstrip, so that's definitely gonna be something I want to do.

As for budget, I have a few grand a month I can throw at it and still get by. Which is why it's taken 5 months to get to where I am (which isn't far ).

I did just order a few things about an hour ago from MMR. Got that 4.75 Crank after Dino was able to help me narrow down the options that'd work for my plan. Also bought a few other things.

Have a ton left to check off the list still because I'm building this block from nothing. The below list is what I'm in the setup for total so far, counting the stuff I purchased today.

Bare block - 300 - FB Marketplace
Reman 3v heads - 1275 - Ebay
Timing cover was - 150 - Ebay
FRPP valve covers - 370 - Ebay
MMR Intake - 800 - Ebay
ARP Cam Cap Bolts - 130 - MMR
3v Phaser Bolts - 40 - MMR
Pro Boost Extreme Duty 1600hp Head Gaskets + ARP 3v Head Studs + Billet Head Dowels - 600 - MMR
3v Front Cover Gaskets - 10 - MMR
Water Pump O-ring - 13 - MMR
Oil Pan Gasket - 60 - MMR
Billet Rear Main Housing - 160 - MMR
4.75 Crank - 900 - MMR
4.75 ARP Balancer Bolt - 50 - MMR
5.0/4.6 Flywheel Spacer - 30 - MMR
4.75 Billet Crank Gear - 265 - MMR
Billet Oil Pump Gears + Stainless Bolts + Torx Tool - 230 - MMR

That's not mentioning the DSS 2618 alloy pistons, Gen 2 rods, ARP Side Bolts, ARP Main Studs, King XP bearings, and ARP Crank Bolt for the Romeo block I was originally planning on building. I also bought some 3v shorties I'm gonna try to make work for a turbo hot side setup. That will require flanges to be cut, flipped, and re-welded though.

 

[Dino Dino Bambino]

So would I be better off just getting the heads ported while keeping the original size valves? I really don't want to bore this block more than .020 over. I did see some badazz wet sleeves for a 5.3 stroker setup the other day on YT. I think his bore was 3.700 if I'm remembering correctly.

I'd say it would be to your advantage to keep the stock valve sizes as there'd be less shrouding. They're already pretty generous for the bore size.
Although it's possible to re-sleeve a Modular aluminum block with 3.70" cylinder bores, the cost would be pretty prohibitive. Interestingly the 5.2L Voodoo block is aluminum with 3.70" bores but I expect only DOHC heads would bolt onto that.

 

[yote0]

 

[Midlife Crises]

King XP bearings

Always been a fan of Clevite H series bearings for an engine that’s getting pounded on. Especially for the rod bearings and any time an aftermarket crank with radiused journals is used.

 

[Thatblack03]

Always been a fan of Clevite H series bearings for an engine that’s getting pounded on. Especially for the rod bearings and any time an aftermarket crank with radiused journals is used.

Luckily, the new crank comes with Clevite bearings. I'd only bought the King XPs because a No Prep guy said they were pretty good. Said he drove a few miles home after an issue with no oil at all and they didn't fully fail. So I figured they be good insurance if I did ever window or crack the pan or something.

 

[the sandman]

I'm wondering how build is progressing brother?

 

[Windy_3V]

As someone who wants to turbo my 3 valve one day and has done a fair amount of research I’ll offer my 2 cents. If you want to realiably and easily hit 650whp a turbo is probably the best option. As for turning that much RPM, the stroker setup is only gonna hurt you since they’re more for low end torque and it’s a lot of stress on the motor and might not even be possible without sending a rod to the stratosphere. Also while it’s been done, it’s not beneficial for turbo setups since they’re mainly for horsepower and strokers are more for max effort N/A cars. You’re much better off with stock stroke and boring .020 or even .040 over but you don’t even really need to for 650whp

I would recommend the livernois heads with oversized valves and I’ve seen 3 valve builds with success porting the stock heads as well. Comp Cam 127650 is a good choice and you should look up the MMR stage 3 turbo cams as well before you make a decision.

For compression ratio I wouldn’t run anything too high on a boosted motor. Cylinder pressures would be way too high and you’d have to lower boost to compensate which isn’t really what you want. The turbo 3 valve owners I’ve talked to are running anywhere from 8.5:1 to 9.0:1 which is actually lower than stock and running upwards of 20psi which depending on your setup you probably won’t need that much for 650whp you should be good with around 15-18psi. Keep in mind head gasket thickness and piston dish when calculating the compression ratio. Manley has some good assemblies with -18cc dished pistons which I’ll mention below.

My recommendation for a rotating assembly would be any of the Manley kits. They have some kits with I-beam rods, ARP hardware, and total seal piston rings offered for stock and over bore sizes for a fair price. Might be a little overkill but better overbuilt than underbuilt especially if budget isn’t an issue. If it is though, Eagle has some good assemblies for a little cheaper as well.

Another thing to consider is the amount of fuel you’re gonna need for that kind of boost. When it comes to turbo cars, the weakest link is always gonna be the fuel system. Lethal Performance has a really nice return style setup which you can customize to your liking but it might be a little overkill. If you run a drop in twin fuel pump assembly from Holley and a nice set of 1000cc injectors you should be fine.

All said and done you should be sub 20k in parts but don’t quote me Hope this helps and good luck with the build

 

[Thatblack03]

I'm wondering how build is progressing brother?

I'm still SLOWLY acquiring parts needed. MMR said my crank will be in within the next 2 to 3 weeks, so pretty pumped on that. I ordered my 3.7 bore pistons last week, MMR quoted 10 to 12 week lead time on those aswell, unfortunately .

But, now all I lack is a proper rod. Once I decide on a rod that's right for what I want to do with the car, I'll order them. Pistons are gonna be around 11.0:1 compression and planning on running a low boost procharger setup now. Likely choices for a rod currently are Callies or Molnar Power Adders. Not too sure what would be best for under a thousand bucks. Also seen that MMR sells Manley H beams with the upgraded 7/16 arp rod bolts for around 950 pre-tax.

But build is coming along, albeit slowly. I've talked with TKM Performance about doing my block work and shortblock assembly. That's gonna cost a hefty chunk of change, but will be well worth it for a reputable shop that's so deeply rooted and experienced in race builds. They also blueprint everything and give customers a spec sheet with all clearences and measurements. They also have a super cool system that let's you follow along with the build, so that's a plus aswell.

 

[the sandman]

sounds awesome

 

[Thatblack03]

As someone who wants to turbo my 3 valve one day and has done a fair amount of research I’ll offer my 2 cents. If you want to realiably and easily hit 650whp a turbo is probably the best option. As for turning that much RPM, the stroker setup is only gonna hurt you since they’re more for low end torque and it’s a lot of stress on the motor and might not even be possible without sending a rod to the stratosphere. Also while it’s been done, it’s not beneficial for turbo setups since they’re mainly for horsepower and strokers are more for max effort N/A cars. You’re much better off with stock stroke and boring .020 or even .040 over but you don’t even really need to for 650whp

I would recommend the livernois heads with oversized valves and I’ve seen 3 valve builds with success porting the stock heads as well. Comp Cam 127650 is a good choice and you should look up the MMR stage 3 turbo cams as well before you make a decision.

For compression ratio I wouldn’t run anything too high on a boosted motor. Cylinder pressures would be way too high and you’d have to lower boost to compensate which isn’t really what you want. The turbo 3 valve owners I’ve talked to are running anywhere from 8.5:1 to 9.0:1 which is actually lower than stock and running upwards of 20psi which depending on your setup you probably won’t need that much for 650whp you should be good with around 15-18psi. Keep in mind head gasket thickness and piston dish when calculating the compression ratio. Manley has some good assemblies with -18cc dished pistons which I’ll mention below.

My recommendation for a rotating assembly would be any of the Manley kits. They have some kits with I-beam rods, ARP hardware, and total seal piston rings offered for stock and over bore sizes for a fair price. Might be a little overkill but better overbuilt than underbuilt especially if budget isn’t an issue. If it is though, Eagle has some good assemblies for a little cheaper as well.

Another thing to consider is the amount of fuel you’re gonna need for that kind of boost. When it comes to turbo cars, the weakest link is always gonna be the fuel system. Lethal Performance has a really nice return style setup which you can customize to your liking but it might be a little overkill. If you run a drop in twin fuel pump assembly from Holley and a nice set of 1000cc injectors you should be fine.

All said and done you should be sub 20k in parts but don’t quote me Hope this helps and good luck with the build

So, about the crank setup being a stroker, it is more stroke than stock but not huge. It's literally a Forged Steel Coyote 8 Bolt Crank from a Boss 302. It has 3.650 stroke vs 3.543 stock and 3.750 in the Eagle 5.0 stroker kits. It was the obvious choice for me because I wanted more rpm.

I've also planned to go big bore. Gonna be a 5.1 liter 313ci beast. 3.650 stroke and 3.700 bore with 11.0:1 compression, basically a coyote at this point lol. Hope to make 400whp NA on pump 93 and around 650whp boosted on a procharger.

I've thought about the build alot and have decided I'd rather not mess with trying to turbo the car. The exhaust will be a nightmare because I'm keeping AC and everything and I don't want to run fender exit. Plan is to buy some good longtubes for a 2v and weld 3v flanges on so they fit the car.

Being that I've pulled the trigger on 11.0:1 compression, you are correct in that I'll be limited on boost. I do have e85 within 30 minutes from home, so I will definitely be running that more often than not I'm thinking. That will help reliability and allow me to run a tad more boost I think. From my understanding, it won't take much at all to get the power I want with the setup, guessing 10 to 15psi max.

One thing I haven't figured out yet is headgaskets though. Not only am I not sure about thicknesses, but not sure what I'd do for a 3.7 bore. Gotta do some reading on that for sure still. I did buy some standard bore Gaskets rated for 1400hp but can't use them. Guess I'll save those for another build.

For fuel, I'm gonna run a triple Walboro pump setup. I've looked at some setups and that's likely the route I'll go. E85 safe, can supply more fuel if I ever wanted to change the setup for high boost, and pretty reliable as far as fuel pumps go. Gonna run -10 feed lines and -8 return. Not real sure on a regulator yet, but probably gonna run a Aeromotive A1k since I'll be running their -10 inline fuel filter. Planning on running FID 1000 injectors, Todd Warren suggested I run them a while back on Facebook.

Money wise, I'm being optimistic and thinking I'll be under 15k total in the build. Only work I won't be doing us what TKM is gonna do, which I mentioned in previous reply. Gonna be 1150 parts cost and 3160 labor. That will be for sleeves, bore, torque plate finish hone, race prep/debur, jet wash, line bore hone, balance, blueprint, and final shortblock assembly.

 

[Thatblack03]

As someone who wants to turbo my 3 valve one day and has done a fair amount of research I’ll offer my 2 cents. If you want to realiably and easily hit 650whp a turbo is probably the best option. As for turning that much RPM, the stroker setup is only gonna hurt you since they’re more for low end torque and it’s a lot of stress on the motor and might not even be possible without sending a rod to the stratosphere. Also while it’s been done, it’s not beneficial for turbo setups since they’re mainly for horsepower and strokers are more for max effort N/A cars. You’re much better off with stock stroke and boring .020 or even .040 over but you don’t even really need to for 650whp

I would recommend the livernois heads with oversized valves and I’ve seen 3 valve builds with success porting the stock heads as well. Comp Cam 127650 is a good choice and you should look up the MMR stage 3 turbo cams as well before you make a decision.

For compression ratio I wouldn’t run anything too high on a boosted motor. Cylinder pressures would be way too high and you’d have to lower boost to compensate which isn’t really what you want. The turbo 3 valve owners I’ve talked to are running anywhere from 8.5:1 to 9.0:1 which is actually lower than stock and running upwards of 20psi which depending on your setup you probably won’t need that much for 650whp you should be good with around 15-18psi. Keep in mind head gasket thickness and piston dish when calculating the compression ratio. Manley has some good assemblies with -18cc dished pistons which I’ll mention below.

My recommendation for a rotating assembly would be any of the Manley kits. They have some kits with I-beam rods, ARP hardware, and total seal piston rings offered for stock and over bore sizes for a fair price. Might be a little overkill but better overbuilt than underbuilt especially if budget isn’t an issue. If it is though, Eagle has some good assemblies for a little cheaper as well.

Another thing to consider is the amount of fuel you’re gonna need for that kind of boost. When it comes to turbo cars, the weakest link is always gonna be the fuel system. Lethal Performance has a really nice return style setup which you can customize to your liking but it might be a little overkill. If you run a drop in twin fuel pump assembly from Holley and a nice set of 1000cc injectors you should be fine.

All said and done you should be sub 20k in parts but don’t quote me Hope this helps and good luck with the build

For the heads, I'm still unsure. I'll definitely be sending them for some work, but gotta decide on what I want.

Some say the upgraded valves being bigger cause shrouding issues, so I need to learn more about that. I also need to find out what springs are best for what I want. I've read about PAC springs breaking with the 127650 cams, so I kinda want to lean more towards the comp 26125-24 springs.

I'm scared to run the 127650s anyway after reading so many bad reviews on them. All I can find is that they keep breaking followers and springs. Nobody ever has an explanation for why the springs break. Is it the rpm? Spring stiffness? May not be an issue with followers for me thoigh since I'm likely gonna run the Jesel billet followers, but I'd rather be safe than sorry.

I know I can run the 127600s with zero problems, so I'll honestly probably go with those since they make significant power too and sound just as good. Plus, I may be able to get away with running the trickflow followers with this cam and still turn 7500 to 8k rpm. Just need to make my mind up...

 

[Thatblack03]

Also, for anyone following the build, I'm now planning a 6r80 swap. There's plenty of guys going FAST with them and I'm wanting this car to be daily drivable. My 08 v6 is auto and I'm loving it compared to the tr3650 lol.

From doing limited research on the swap, all I need is a 2013 f150 6r80, a quick 6 trans controller, trans mount, and a shifter. I know it can't be that easy, so I've got alot more left to figure out. I heard the stock drive shaft will work also.