Aftermarket COP Idea--Warning Science/Engineering Content!

MikeVistaBlue06

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This subject has been beat to death, but I am not here to beat a dead horse. We all know this mod is not necessary for a lot of us, and that some have had good luck with it as well as some have had bad luck with it.

However, in the good name of science and engineering, I have an idea that may shed some light on the "goodness" of aftermarket COPs versus the stock ones.

Using a good DVM (digital volt-ohm-milliamp meter), you should be able to measure the internal resistance of the primary and, if you like, the secondary side. We call this value Rint.

One terminal on top of the COP will be a common ground for both the primary and secondary sides. I would guess you can look at the wiring schematic for the feed to the COPs and determine which wire/terminal is ground.

Use the DVM in resistance mode to measure the internal resistance of the primary and secondary sides. Be sure to not touch the terminals while you make this measurement to ensure you don't put a resistance in parallel with the primary or secondary side.

Measure the aftermarket ones versus the stock ones.

Now this is what I would expect to see if the aftermarket ones are stronger than the stock ones: The internal resistance of the aftermarket ones should be LOWER than the stock ones. This will most likely mean they are using a larger diameter wire (lower gauge number) for more current flow.

Now if the measurement shows that Rint is HIGHER, then that tells me they are using more windings with a similar or smaller wire, which is BAD.

Now if I had some of the equipment I had in college/grad school (decade resistor boxes, variable capacitors, and a signal generator), I could actually use an AC sine wave input to measure the inductance of the COP and do that comparison as well. Lower Rint and more inductance (L) would definitely make a better COP.

Hope this helps with this issue.

Mike
 

psfracer

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Warning, you are now speaking with a electrial idiot:

I want to try this as I have both GMS coils and the stockers. I want to compare the resistances of all of the coils and post it up. BUT, I want to make sure I do it correctly. I have an OHM meter with a red and black lead. The ohm meter has several different choices to choose from. Which one do I use, and how should the black and red leads from the ohm meter be connected to the coil if I want to measure ACCURATELY the amount of resistance??
 

GT John

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This subject has been beat to death, but I am not here to beat a dead horse. We all know this mod is not necessary for a lot of us, and that some have had good luck with it as well as some have had bad luck with it.

However, in the good name of science and engineering, I have an idea that may shed some light on the "goodness" of aftermarket COPs versus the stock ones.

Using a good DVM (digital volt-ohm-milliamp meter), you should be able to measure the internal resistance of the primary and, if you like, the secondary side. We call this value Rint.

One terminal on top of the COP will be a common ground for both the primary and secondary sides. I would guess you can look at the wiring schematic for the feed to the COPs and determine which wire/terminal is ground.

Use the DVM in resistance mode to measure the internal resistance of the primary and secondary sides. Be sure to not touch the terminals while you make this measurement to ensure you don't put a resistance in parallel with the primary or secondary side.

Measure the aftermarket ones versus the stock ones.

Now this is what I would expect to see if the aftermarket ones are stronger than the stock ones: The internal resistance of the aftermarket ones should be LOWER than the stock ones. This will most likely mean they are using a larger diameter wire (lower gauge number) for more current flow.

Now if the measurement shows that Rint is HIGHER, then that tells me they are using more windings with a similar or smaller wire, which is BAD.

Now if I had some of the equipment I had in college/grad school (decade resistor boxes, variable capacitors, and a signal generator), I could actually use an AC sine wave input to measure the inductance of the COP and do that comparison as well. Lower Rint and more inductance (L) would definitely make a better COP.

Hope this helps with this issue.

Mike

Hey Mike,

I couldnt agree with your logic any more.:supercool:

The same logic also applies to spark plugs. You should ohm out the plugs before you buy them. (electrode to tip) you want them all to be as close to 6000 ohms as possible. If you can find plugs with a lower resistance that match thats even better.

I = E/R

Lets see where this post takes us.:popcorneat:

:beer:
 

MikeVistaBlue06

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Warning, you are now speaking with a electrial idiot:

I want to try this as I have both GMS coils and the stockers. I want to compare the resistances of all of the coils and post it up. BUT, I want to make sure I do it correctly. I have an OHM meter with a red and black lead. The ohm meter has several different choices to choose from. Which one do I use, and how should the black and red leads from the ohm meter be connected to the coil if I want to measure ACCURATELY the amount of resistance??

It doesn't matter which lead you use, red or black. Just be sure that you don't touch the two leads with your fingers.

Start with the two leads where you plug in the double pronged wire on top.

Start with a 1000 ohm scale, and if that reads low, move to a 100 ohm scale, and repeat until you can get a reading. You may even have to use a 1 ohm scale.

Are you using a digital meter or an old analog one (has a needle). Let me know if it is the latter, because I will have to show you how to zero it before measuring.

Thanks for giving this a try.

Mike
 
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GT John

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Hey Mike.

Dont know what I was thinking.............then it dawned on me........I'm a ham radio operator and build my own antenna systems and coils.

I happen to own a couple of very expensive antenna analyzers that can measure anything. L/C/R/Freq/loss/impedance

Any particular frequency you want me to use? Or just do a sweep.

This will have to wait until Saturday when I get back to the speed shop.

Sorry 'bout that:popcorneat:
 

MikeVistaBlue06

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Thanks John! That is absolutely COOL!!!

Definitely measure L and Rint if you can (internal DC resistance)

As for frequency, I am thinking what frequency would the coils see (square wave type) beyween 600 and 6500 rpm.

To do that we need to know how many cylinders fire for one revolution of the crankshaft. Assuming an even fire V8, then we have 4 spark plugs firing for 1 revolution of the crankshaft, so we get:

600 revs/minute X 4 fires/rev X 1 minute/60 seconds = 40 fires/sec or 40Hz.

On the upper end:

6500 revs/min X 4 fires/rev X 1 minute/60 seconds = 433 fires/sec or 433 Hz.

So sweep from 40Hz to 500Hz and that should tell us what L is for that frequency range.

Cool. It will be interesting to see the results.

What I expect from a better coil is:

Lower Rint on primary and secondary side
Larger L

Both of these combined should give more spark energy since E = 1/2 LI² for an inductor.

Thx,

Mike
 
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GT John

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Man............you've got a busy mind. Try one of these:bigbeer:and then get some sleep.

Bump to the top.

It will be Saturday afternoon before I have any info.

:beer:
 

Freaknazty

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im glad you two understand each other because you lost me at go lmao ......i get your point to an extent but when you find the results put them in dumbass terms will ya , thanks
 

DirtyDogOfTheDesert

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Why would 4 fires per rotation come into the equasion? We're talking about C.O.P's or 1 coil per cylinder, not a distributor type coil ignition system.
How about each coil fires once per every second rotation of the crank, so at 6500rpm, any given coil fires 3250 times per minute or roughly 54 times a second per cylinder.

At the end of the day, coils are not going to make more power. They may be a good tuning aid on a radical high boost application where spark blowout may be an issue, but more power from a coil swap only, not likely.
 
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MikeVistaBlue06

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Why would 4 fires per rotation come into the equasion? [\quote]

Any V8 should have 4 sparkplugs fire per one revolution of the crankshaft. This comes into play so we can understand the actual frequency of the COPs firing. From idle to 6500 RPM, the actual electrical frequency is 40Hz to 500Hz for all practical terms.

Inductive reactance is a function of the frequency. So when John sweeps from 40Hz to 500Hz, he should be able to measure the inductance of the coil very accurately.

Good ole electrical engineering stuff!

Hope this helps explain it.

Mike
 

rojizostang

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and the outcome of all this is...?

did we have any results with the test equipment to determine if the after market cops are a better piece of equipment....regardless of whether or not they give any performance improvement in a slightly modified car?
 

one eyed willy

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and the outcome of all this is...?

did we have any results with the test equipment to determine if the after market cops are a better piece of equipment....regardless of whether or not they give any performance improvement in a slightly modified car?


^Im with this guy, yeah or nay on the aftermarket ones? This would be my next upgrade, so id really like to know.
 

MikeVistaBlue06

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and the outcome of all this is...?

did we have any results with the test equipment to determine if the after market cops are a better piece of equipment....regardless of whether or not they give any performance improvement in a slightly modified car?

^Im with this guy, yeah or nay on the aftermarket ones? This would be my next upgrade, so id really like to know.

John said he'd measure them on Saturday.

Mike
 

rojizostang

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sorry, i suppose i lost track of what day it is with the holiday weekend. still looking forward to the outcome of all this...btw, thanks for the effort
 

psfracer

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OK, detailed below is what I found.

I measured each plug, each coil the same way and repeated. Then I re measured again the lowest and the highest from each group.

CoilSparkPlugtest.jpg


CoilSparkPlugtest1.jpg


I would assume the GMS coils would have higher resistance then the stock coils because of more windings?

Also, on the old HT0s, I remember back in October I replaced only four plugs from the passenger side, and those were much lower then the drivers side. Do these things differ that much?? Perhaps each "batch" is different?
 

don_w

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Now this is what I would expect to see if the aftermarket ones are stronger than the stock ones: The internal resistance of the aftermarket ones should be LOWER than the stock ones. This will most likely mean they are using a larger diameter wire (lower gauge number) for more current flow.

CoilSparkPlugtest1.jpg


I would assume the GMS coils would have higher resistance then the stock coils because of more windings?
Hmmm... so much for the aftermarket coils having less resistance...
 

rojizostang

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Hmmm... so much for the aftermarket coils having less resistance...

kinda what i was thinking. however if the aftermarket cops operated at a higher voltage (more windings implied), then couldn't that be the reason for the higher resistance?
 

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