Problem Found, or Created During DS Install

Johnmichael · Aug 8, 2007

I'm currently in the middle of a Spyder install and I'm at the point where it's time to torque the pinion nut to spec after tightening it with the impact. Well there wasn't sufficient clearance to maneuver the torque wrench so I lowered the car to the ground.

When I moved the car forward for a little more room, it gave me a bit of a hard time, but I still pushed it (to gain clearance from my garage door)...that's when I heard some gear clunking.

I put the car on rear stands only, to gain the extra clearance, then I go back under and the new Spyder pinion flange is now loose, and I can turn it a few degrees to the right. When I do, I can hear the gear hitting something.

Now did I do something wrong, or can this be attributed to a recent gear install that left me with extreme vibration in the car afterwards? I had some prior vibration from the stock DS and I simply attributed the new excess vibration to the stock DS bolts not being reattached in the same place they were before. I actually realigned it a couple weeks a couple weeks ago but it didn't help.

Bottom line, was I not supposed to move the car at this point of the install, or can it be attributed to the gear install?

LSlayer · Aug 8, 2007

I wouldn't move it just cause the pinion isn't secured and torqued in its proper position and it and the ring gear may grind and rub. But if anything since the car wasn't moving fast you may be alright. The noise may have been the ring gear trying to catch the pinion but since the pinion was loose it's just kinda flopping around. Just my wild guess outta left field.

scramblr · Aug 8, 2007

I'd say make sure it's seated properly and torque the nut down. It will slip the flange back to where it's in snug.

Johnmichael · Aug 8, 2007

It's not stable enough to torque it down. There's no way it's seated. How can I seat it? Should I try again to turn the wheels more and hope it grabs, or does the differential cover need to come off? Thanks for the help.

LSlayer · Aug 8, 2007

As long as the pinion flange dosen't wobble around and just rotates on a flat plane your fine. Were you able to verify torque? The noise you hear when your torquing the pinion nut is just the pinion trying to turn the wheels with the e-brake on(assuming you have it on). Otherwise the noise you hear when your turning the pinion flange by hand the is pinion engaging the ring gear. I'm not experienced enough to tell you how it should feel but there should be some drag when you turning the pinion flange(E-brake off). If its completly tight I'd think its bad.

It may help if you can jack up the front. That could give you some extra clearance. It take a lot of torque but crank til it clicks.

Johnmichael · Aug 9, 2007

It's not wobbling. And the e brake was on when I was turning the flange by hand and hearing the gear hitting. I just tried turning it with the e brake off, and the car in neutral, and when I turn it counterclockwise (reverse) the flange protrudes out a half inch, but it freely turns. When I spin it clockwise, the flange goes back in but stops when it engages, like when I was rolling it forward.

I'm not able to verify torque without more clearance. I'm going to remove the drivers side cat back in order to get the clearance I need. I'm just not sure if I should go forward with the install, or have the car towed to get it checked out. Unfortunately, I do not know of any differential experts that can swing by my place. Being in Tampa, I'm sure they are out there. I just can't think of any at the moment.

scramblr · Aug 9, 2007

I think you're alright and the flange just isn't in all the way. Enough to where you're not getting a leak, but not seated all the way. Do what you have to and get leverage on that torque wrench. I'd pull the nut back out, put loctite on it and then torque down to 140lbs. I believe the flange will slip right in there.

don_w · Aug 9, 2007

Have you tried to contact Ron (spyder) directly? I have a dollar that says he knows more about it that just about anyone here.

Johnmichael · Aug 9, 2007

I can't find a number for him, but I will send him a PM and alert him to this thread. Thanks!

don_w · Aug 9, 2007

Johnmichael said:
I can't find a number for him, but I will send him a PM and alert him to this thread. Thanks!

You could also send an e-mail to [email protected]

Johnmichael · Aug 9, 2007

Done. Thanks again.

spyder7724 · Aug 9, 2007

johnmichael,
sounds like the pinion nut isn't tight enough.with the driveshaft disconnected the flange should not move in or out at all when turning it. if you can pull the flange out then it isn't even close to being tight enough and will most definitely do some damage if driven too long. This is the most critical step in the install. a good way to tell is if the threads of the pinion gear are actually sticking through past the pinion nut when it's fully tightened. check out the DIY section for kimmers pics. the amount of threads protruding the stock flange is close to same as what should be in the new flange. I think i have a pic of the new flange and nut installed i'll post it on here for you.
i'll pm you my phone # if you need some more help.

Johnmichael · Aug 9, 2007

I went ahead and took scramblr's advice (I also removed the driver side exhaust to gain clearance) and pulled the nut off, loctited again, reinstalled, and torqued it down with the wrench. It took a lot of turns beyond what the impact on the highest setting achieved. It's definitely set it in a lot further, and all seems good, but I didn't get a chance to drive it yet. Unfortunately, I wasn't able to torque the 8 flange bolts to spec (76ft/lbs) since I did not have a 12 mm/12pt crows foot to get the torque wrench on them. I couldn't get to it with just a universal. It's pretty tight, and of course I loctited it.

I'll be sure to post the outcome of the gear issue tomorrow.

Thanks to all of you that helped.

Johnmichael · Aug 10, 2007

The car is drivable, but there is an issue with the gears. I hear some small metal pieces moving around in the differential @ idle. The metal problem could have occurred when I moved the car a few feet without a DS connected, and/or when I had to bang the stock pinion flange off (will buy/use a puller next time).

There is good news...most of my driving is local, and the extreme vibration I had @ 25 mph is gone (THANK YOU, RON!). But some more bad news is I now have severe vibration starting @ 65 (metal sound appears then as well), which increases @ 70 and progressively worsens. I did not check pinion angle which could be responsible for some or all of the vibration. I have plans to take the car to a shop with a drive on lift to check it for me. If it needs adjustment, I will purchase a BMR adjustable UCA (I have fixed LCA's) and have the angle adjusted that way.

I do not feel bad about how things are going. This sort of thing occasionally happens when doing things yourself, and do not have experience with the component(s) involved. I now have the experience, and have learned a lot from it. It's now time to bring the car to a master tech @ Ford (I have a hook-up) and have him diagnose and repair the differential damage.

Johnmichael · Aug 10, 2007

I just spoke to a local shop and he firmly believes the issue is partly related to a bad gear install prior to the DS install, me not using a puller on the pinion flange, and that anytime you remove the pinion nut/pinion flange all the settings on the differential should be rechecked/reset, bearings, backlash, etc.

Now I know you guys will disagree with his last reason, but I agree with his first 2 since the vibration increased immediately after the gear install, and me pounding on the pinion flange obviously worsened the problem.

scramblr · Aug 10, 2007

Interesting...please keep us updated. When I was installing another aftermarket DS for about the 6th time, I improperly set the pinion angle while trying to get rid of bad vibrations. When I went for a test drive I heard horrible metal clanking noises from my rear end when I would down shift an accelerate. Took the car home and I had streched the pinion seal and created a leak. That cost me $180 to get fixed...

MikeVistaBlue06 · Aug 10, 2007

Johnmichael said:
I just spoke to a local shop and he firmly believes the issue is partly related to a bad gear install prior to the DS install, me not using a puller on the pinion flange, and that anytime you remove the pinion nut/pinion flange all the settings on the differential should be rechecked/reset, bearings, backlash, etc.

Now I know you guys will disagree with his last reason, but I agree with his first 2 since the vibration increased immediately after the gear install, and me pounding on the pinion flange obviously worsened the problem.

I have heard that once gears break-in, it is almost impossible to get them reset properly. You may need to get a brand new set of gears and do a re-install.

Keep that in mind if they whine a lot or make other noises.

Make sure someone takes a magnet on the end of a telescopic type (antenna) stick and have them root around in the sump of the differential and get any metal that may have gotten loose. You don't want any foreign metal floating around in there regardless!

Hope this helps.

Mike

MrClean · Aug 10, 2007

Johnmichael: the tq spec for the 8 flange bolts is 76 ftlbs, not 79...just verified to make sure...

Johnmichael · Aug 12, 2007

MrClean said:
Johnmichael: the tq spec for the 8 flange bolts is 76 ftlbs, not 79...just verified to make sure...

Thanks, Marc. I edited my post to show the correct TQ#.

Thanks for the tip, Mike. I'll be sure to pass that info along to the installer.

I have an appointment on Wednesday with a Ford dealership (mod friendly) to check things out. I'm sure that the quote to fix is going to be ridiculous, but I may just use their diagnosis and get it done elsewhere.

Johnmichael · Aug 14, 2007

Yesterday I called the shop (Genium Performance Largo, FL) that installed the gears to see what they thought about the problem and the owner was kind enough to agree to take a look at it for me even though it was after hours.

When he removed the diff cover, he found an obvious problem...see picture (sorry for the crappy digital camera pic). I gave the shop owner (Dave Genium) a link to this thread so he can explain (better than I) what he believes was the cause of the problem.

The good news is that we found one problem, the bad news is that our 1st attempt to fix it has failed, but I will press on.

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