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Johnmichael
Guest
Thanks for that info, scramblr. I have fixed LCA's at the moment, so I guess we can at least check the PA and if it needs adjustment I'll get the adjustable UCA.
9
91Notch
Guest
the pinion angle is the angle of the pinion in relation to the driveshaftThe pinion angle needs be checked with the car on level ground. I can't do it here at my shop you need to put the car on a drive on lift. The crank pulley has nothing to do with pinion angle. Plus the DS has to be connected to check pinion angle.
here is a link to a pretty good article. http://www.carcraft.com/howto/91758/index.html But honestly pinion angle has to off the charts to create a problem.
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J
Johnmichael
Guest
Ford issued this checklist when the '99 Cobras had drive line vibration issues:
Dave, are you familiar with the local shop "Transmission Physicians"? If so, do you think I should run the car by them?
Maybe there's something here, maybe not. Just thought I'd post it.
Dave, are you familiar with the local shop "Transmission Physicians"? If so, do you think I should run the car by them?
scramblr
Senior Member
I was just pointing out that if he wanted to know the angle of the tranny flange, he can get it by measuring the crank pulley angle without having to remove the DS.
Interesting read on the p/a adjustment, appreciate it. I wish there was a standard for a one-piece DS...that's the 2nd or 3rd diffrent type of instructions for measuring p/a I've read and it's totatlly different than the others. Not saying it's wrong, it's just the measuring is totally different.
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MrClean
Marc; but I go by MrClean
I'd Googled and found that site a couple of days ago...I was measuring the PA wrong...taking the bottom of the pumpkin, vs the pinion flange, but I started to use a metal ruler flush against the pinion flange and then the angle finder on the ruler, but below where there was enough clearance for the angle finder. Instead of -2º like I thought I had, I in fact had -3º, so I loosened the jam-nuts on the CHE UCA and adjusted to -1.5º. We'll see how the vibes are tomorrow...and I'll report back.
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scramblr
Senior Member
I know...That's why I said the DS has to be removed from the rear flange to get an accurate reading. You can get away with it with the stock flange since it's a bit flat, but not with the flange that comes with the Spyder DS.
MrClean
Marc; but I go by MrClean
Actually you don't: I used a carpenter's square or ruler (I did it with bot to confirm results), and put the long side up against the rear of the pinion flange, making sure to not be on top of the piece of bolt protruding, and then put the angle finder on the ruler 9veryically) or the swuare (horizontally).
Charlie Sheen
Armed and Hammered
Not exactly. Both angles would change with the car being pointed uphill or downhill. Granted, there would be a slight weight transfer that would minimally effect these angles but not enough to measure unless you were parked on a 10+/- degree slope.
spyder7724
Senior Member
the pinion angle is the difference of angle between the crankshaft centerline and the pinion gear centerline as viewed from the side of the car. the driveshaft itself has nothing to do with the actual pinion angle setting although on these cars it affects the performance of the driveshaft in it's ability to absorb harmonics from the drivetrain (don't ask me why but it just does).
I'm seeing a pattern here...didn't the 99 cobras have a 31 spline limited slip posi unit? (I know it's IRS but they still use 8.8 internal parts)
how come the 2 million cars and trucks that used a 28 spline posi 8.8 differential never had major issues but every single vehicle ford has built and used that carrier in has major problems??? oh and the 05-up V6 cars have a one piece shaft but don't use the 8.8 rear...hummm.
05-up stangs, f150,explorer,ranger,99cobra etc. all had 31 spline posi units but do the newer cobras(03-04) use that same posi unit? if not that explains why they didn't have the vibration problems.
the sucky part about this stuff is with the stock driveshaft you have no idea if there is anything wrong with the car to start with cause ford made that monstrosity to hide the vibrations. Heck kimmer didn't know his expensive 20"wheels were square until he installed my driveshaft. with the stock noodle-shaft it masked the vibrations and he never knew.
I guess I can say Ford did one hell of a job covering up a problem...if only they would have spent the time and money finding out what it was maybe they could have fixed it instead of just sweeping it under the rug.
I'm seeing a pattern here...didn't the 99 cobras have a 31 spline limited slip posi unit? (I know it's IRS but they still use 8.8 internal parts)
how come the 2 million cars and trucks that used a 28 spline posi 8.8 differential never had major issues but every single vehicle ford has built and used that carrier in has major problems??? oh and the 05-up V6 cars have a one piece shaft but don't use the 8.8 rear...hummm.
05-up stangs, f150,explorer,ranger,99cobra etc. all had 31 spline posi units but do the newer cobras(03-04) use that same posi unit? if not that explains why they didn't have the vibration problems.
the sucky part about this stuff is with the stock driveshaft you have no idea if there is anything wrong with the car to start with cause ford made that monstrosity to hide the vibrations. Heck kimmer didn't know his expensive 20"wheels were square until he installed my driveshaft. with the stock noodle-shaft it masked the vibrations and he never knew.
I guess I can say Ford did one hell of a job covering up a problem...if only they would have spent the time and money finding out what it was maybe they could have fixed it instead of just sweeping it under the rug.
scramblr
Senior Member
LOL...I meant that I know there's a procedure for a two piece DS and a procedure for a one piece DS.
MrClean
Marc; but I go by MrClean
LOL...I meant that I know there's a procedure for a two piece DS and a procedure for a one piece DS.
hey, check out the other thread on this again, I adjusted PA and made a drawing based on the general consensus of what I read on several sites...
THIS ONE (although a 4x4 site) has a really good explanation of how the U-Joints work, and why they need to be in phase when under load. Read the editor's note on the technical advisor, Steve Johnson, then scroll down to where it says: "U-joints and typical drive shafts".
This One is interesting in that it provides an alternative to measuring the tranny flange angle
This one also goes into the u-joint parts speeding up and slowing down at every rotation, which underpins the importance of both u-joints being "in-phase"
This one goes into the procedure again, but note that they're building a race car (without rubber bushings in the control arms, and therefore not needing to compensate for the pumpkin rotating under load/acceleration), therefore the tranny flange and pinion flanges are set exactly parallel, without the 2º of pinion-down angle to compensate for the aforementioned axle/pumpkin rotation unedr load/acceleration.
Hope this helps!
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MrClean
Marc; but I go by MrClean
Johnmichael have you resolved your rear-end issues?
Sorry to have hi-jacked your thread and gone off on tangents
, although somewhat salient to the topic at hand.
Sorry to have hi-jacked your thread and gone off on tangents
, although somewhat salient to the topic at hand.
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Johnmichael
Guest
No resolution yet. I'm going to call Ron soon and get his opinion on the sit-chi-a-tion.
No worries. At least the PA info is bumping the thread. LOL
No worries. At least the PA info is bumping the thread. LOL
Buzzystang
Member
I have similiar ring and pinion issues since owning the car. I've had it in three times in two years (it's my DD) to try to pinpoint a whine/howl I get from 50-70 MPH in fifth gear only. One dealer totally f'ed up my rear end twice trying to do the TSB, then I took it to another dealer and found a tech who gave a damb. His repair order said the other dealer "set improper backlash, too much pinion depth, and insufficient pinion preload". It could be that even though the other tech set it to Ford spec originally, something else in the rear end made it go out of spec within a few hundred miles. The second tech said some techs just set the backlash to Ford specs and then let it go, without checking any of the other tolerances. He said he would take his time with it, use gear marking compound and really get it dialed in. He spent the better part of the day on it. It did sound better afterwards, but it still had a howl from 50-70, which he attributed to drone from my Flowmasters. This was last September.
The whine/howl still bugs me, so I put the stock mufflers back on last weekend. Still there - so I'm planning on taking it to the dealer next month to hopefully take care of it once and for all. I don't think it's coming from the rear, at least when I'm driving it, it sounds like it might be the tranny or the driveshaft. If they say its the rear end again, I think I'm going to lobby for a whole new axle. There were a few others with the ring and pinion issue that ended up going this route and it finally solved the problem.
I mention this to johnmichael and to david, just to let them know that maybe there are other gremlins in the rear that are beyond their control, even if you do follow spec.
The whine/howl still bugs me, so I put the stock mufflers back on last weekend. Still there - so I'm planning on taking it to the dealer next month to hopefully take care of it once and for all. I don't think it's coming from the rear, at least when I'm driving it, it sounds like it might be the tranny or the driveshaft. If they say its the rear end again, I think I'm going to lobby for a whole new axle. There were a few others with the ring and pinion issue that ended up going this route and it finally solved the problem.
I mention this to johnmichael and to david, just to let them know that maybe there are other gremlins in the rear that are beyond their control, even if you do follow spec.
MrClean
Marc; but I go by MrClean
I have some whine at exactly 65 mph (I can hear it start at ~61 mph and by 70 mph it's gone). I think I'm screwed from a warranty perspective, though, having put a Spydershaft on it...(which requires changing the pinion flange)
J
Johnmichael
Guest
Thanks for the post, Chris. Dave mentioned there were other measurements he could take if I left the car with him, which I can do. I'd hate to see him open it up for the third time and find no issues.
A new axle would be great, but as Ron mentioned, these stock axles may do more harm than good. If I can find a affordable new axle set up I'll go for that. At least it would come with a new gear.
I'm thinking of having the DS balance checked, and maybe my wheels checked. They are a new set of wheels, and the vibe I had in the beginning was present with both sets of wheels.
If the vibe @ 80 and above wasn't so violent, I'd live with the noises, but the car goes into convulsions at those speeds and it's unbearable.
A new axle would be great, but as Ron mentioned, these stock axles may do more harm than good. If I can find a affordable new axle set up I'll go for that. At least it would come with a new gear.
I'm thinking of having the DS balance checked, and maybe my wheels checked. They are a new set of wheels, and the vibe I had in the beginning was present with both sets of wheels.
If the vibe @ 80 and above wasn't so violent, I'd live with the noises, but the car goes into convulsions at those speeds and it's unbearable.
Buzzystang
Member
Well, I feel lucky, as all it is for me is just an annoying noise, no violent vibrations.
Mr. Clean - is your howl in 5th gear only? Still there even with the spydershaft? I see you have the 3.55 rear end option - I wonder that setup is more prone to noise issues than the 3.31? Maybe if I get a 4.10 it will go away? Yeah, that's it...
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MrClean
Marc; but I go by MrClean
I'd call it more of a "murmur". I tested agaib this afternoon, after setting the pinion flange exactly parallel with the tranny flange, with a pinion to DS angle of 2.5º, so therefore following to the letter the 3 rules set out in the Spicer/Dana pdf doc you uploaded on the other thread (thanks again, BTW), I still have the murmur, but to answer your question, I does it when I pop the tranny into neutral from 4th at 110, which unloads the DS. With the DS loaded (accelerating or decelerating in gear), it's not really as prevalent. In 5th, it does it more than in 4th...maybe because the acceleration (torque) in 4th at 4800 rpm in 4th is near the engine's peak, therefore placing more load on the DS...same for decel, more engine braking in 4th that in 5th.
Maybe it's the load (positive or negative) on the rear end that keeps the murmur in check, but when that load is removed, something starts to vibrate.
Wasn't there a mention about how the V6 S197's are running a 1 pc DS, because they don't use the 8.8 rear end?
Johnmichael, if you're going to replace the rear axle, maybe there's a 9 inch Currie in your future?
I'm going to keep the Spyder in for now, but I've resigned myself to driving up to 90 (the highest speed limit in TX is 70, and at 25 mph over the speed limit, you get to go to the pokie if caught, so 70+20=90 seems like a reasonable self imposed limit), which falls under the murmur threshold.
Point of interest: when under the car this morning adjusting pinion angle for what seems like the 5 time, I was looking at the U-joint and a word etched/cast into it jumped out at me...."SPICER"...both U-joints are made by Spicer, a Dana Corp company/brand! So, for y'all with the murmur, I suggestat a minimum following the 3 rules in the document on Page 8...I'm uploading it in this thread for everyone's benefit.
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MrClean
Marc; but I go by MrClean
Oh, forgot to mention another interesting coincidence: when I set the TF and PF parallel, I then measured the distance between the bolts/holes on the CHE adj UCA on my car at that setting: 8.5", and then measured the distance between the same holes on the stock OEM UCA....you guessed it: 8.5"....which is why some of Spyder's customers with otherwise stock rear ends are OK with the pinion angle....
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