Hot rod cams install went wrong, need info.

Sorry, this is my first post on this site but I am at a loss and in need of help. I decided to do the hot rod cams install today and I'm fairly familiar with timing on cars since I mechanic for a living. But after the install I returned my car tune back to stock, downloaded my custom tune files from bama and reloaded the new bama tunes onto the car. Both times I tried starting the car it ran extremely rough and wouldn't get over 500 rpm until it finally backfired and died. I'm fairly certain that my timing was done correctly because when I went back on the install my timing marks were in the exact same spot since I marked the chain and phaser and I used the ford timing chain wedge to hold the lower section of the timing. Install went very smooth and when started there was no abnormal noise from under hood. It just sounds like it's fighting itself like a timing issue but I'm not entirely sure that it couldn't be my tune.. it's currently at my place of employment and they'll give me some time to mess with it, but I need this car as it is my daily driver. Are there ANY reasons that could make the car missfire and backfire out of the exhaust except for timing? Because I'm not exactly excited about the thought of pulling the cam covers again more or less the front timing cover itself. Any ideas or suggestions?

You could try the stock tune again and see if anything changes. All you changed are the cams, right? Everything else is stock? All the connectors got hooked back up?

Ivery heard that the phaser setups are very susceptible to problems with thicker oil and I will add that all I had to use for camshaft lube was lucas oil stabilizer. I used it on the cam caps and on the roller followers and cam lobes. I don't know if it could be too thick and being pushed into an oil galley keeping the phasers from working right or not, but I figured I'd add that into the thought process.

All connectors went back fine and yes the only thing I changed was the camshafts. I reloaded it back to the stock tune on the second startup but with the same results. It had a 87 octane tune before I pulled the battery and it's been off since yesterday morning so idk if it might have possibly affected the computer?

Keckjr said:

All connectors went back fine and yes the only thing I changed was the camshafts. I reloaded it back to the stock tune on the second startup but with the same results. It had a 87 octane tune before I pulled the battery and it's been off since yesterday morning so idk if it might have possibly affected the computer?

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Disconnecting the battery will clear the kam (keep alive memory) that stores the adaptive learning. Loading a new tune does the same thing so I'd rule that out.

It sure sounds like something happened to the timing. It would be almost impossible with the marks lined up when it went back together unless something dropped off of the bottom gear. It's possible to have the wedge feel like it's locked in when it isn't. It needs a real good shove to get it all the way in (no jokes intended).

Taking the cover off isn't that big of a deal. It's tedious and takes a few hours but it's doable. A ratcheting 13mm wrench comes in handy for the ps pump. It sucks to redo a job but if everything is hooked back up correctly there is little else it can be.

Have you gone over all the vaccum lines to make sure they are hooked up? IIRC the pcv hose comes off and sometimes people take the evap hose off. It's also possible that the brake booster or vacuum line to the frps has come off. A vacuum leak usually results in a super high idle but I've knocked the brake booster hose off and had results similar to yours.

I only doubt that the wedge moved because it literally took quite a bit of force to remove once it was installed on either side and I even checked it with my light to make sure it was directly between the chains prior to removing phasers. What are the chances of valve to piston collision while troubleshooting if I continue to check for causes? It still has the original phasers.

I will check my vacuum hoses tomorrow morning and make sure that there are no major leaks to rule that thought out and will reply back with results. As long as the keyway in the phaser lines up with the camshaft Ithe should be correct, are there any oil feed galleys that may not be lines up properly? I noticed the new bolts they sent had openings for oil to flow also but I torques them as stated and I was just wondering if I may be having an oil starvation to the phasers that could cause a timing problem? Idk, my mind is running wild. I'll let you know what I find tomorrow.

Keckjr said:

I only doubt that the wedge moved because it literally took quite a bit of force to remove once it was installed on either side and I even checked it with my light to make sure it was directly between the chains prior to removing phasers. What are the chances of valve to piston collision while troubleshooting if I continue to check for causes? It still has the original phasers.

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The theory is that it will take a lift of .500 to cause problems, Hot Rods are less than that so it shouldn't be an issue but I can't say 100%.

Keckjr said:

I will check my vacuum hoses tomorrow morning and make sure that there are no major leaks to rule that thought out and will reply back with results. As long as the keyway in the phaser lines up with the camshaft Ithe should be correct, are there any oil feed galleys that may not be lines up properly? I noticed the new bolts they sent had openings for oil to flow also but I torques them as stated and I was just wondering if I may be having an oil starvation to the phasers that could cause a timing problem? Idk, my mind is running wild. I'll let you know what I find tomorrow.

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As long as the cams are in the keyway they are properly lined up. the oil holes in the bolts don't need to line up with anything. When installed they are in an area with space around it.

Just a thought...I got some cams from comp and they sent one correct cam and one incorrect cam. It wasn't like they sent two left's or two rights, they just fucked up and sent the wrong stuff.

I didn't catch it, AED did.

Just wanting you confirm part numbers were checked.

Sorry about your luck.

hoping you put the cams on the correct sides?

one is slightly longer than the other, can take the valve covers off and look to see if either chain is to close to the block and about to rub or something.

Your timing is off.
No if's, and's or but's.

Even with a stock tune, that thing should run well enough to be drivable.
Those cams aren't that radical, by a long shot.

You're going to have to pull that engine cover and reset all that.

I double checked the part numbers when I got them home and out of the box. And when installing I matched the snout lengths of the cams before installing.

Load the stock tune, unplug the maf connector and start it. If it idles fine its tune related. If not its mechanical.

I removed the maf plug and tried it with the same results. Checked all my vacuum lines and nothing off. Looks like I'm gonna have to pull the front cover and start fresh. Really disappointing but I guess it is what it is.

Also I need to add that during the swap I had to hook a jump box up to roll my window down because I had to get something in my car and couldn't close the door back and at some point the positive cable touched the fender. Is there any possibility that I may have fried the computer? Or any way to check it first before I pull the cover?

Keckjr said:

Also I need to add that during the swap I had to hook a jump box up to roll my window down because I had to get something in my car and couldn't close the door back and at some point the positive cable touched the fender. Is there any possibility that I may have fried the computer? Or any way to check it first before I pull the cover?

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It's doubtful but I'm not sure what protections are in place for the ecu.

When you get the valve covers off check the reluctor fingers to see if they are close to this picture in relation to the gear markings.



One last ditch thing to try before taking it apart would be to pull the cam position sensor connectors and try starting. It could be possible that the reluctors have moved and are telling the ecu to fire the wrong cylinder bank for the compression stroke.

That's what I think happened to my motor at one time when it wouldn't start after taking the phasers off.

The cam position sensors are located on the front of the timing cover.

Already pulling the cam covers. I'll check to make sure that the reluctor fingers are in order for the picture

The reluctor fingers on the passenger side phaser are exactly as in the picture. The center of the 3 fingers on the driver side is just slightly to the right of the timing mark instead of slightly to the left as shown in the picture.

Keckjr said:

The reluctor fingers on the passenger side phaser are exactly as in the picture. The center of the 3 fingers on the driver side is just slightly to the right of the timing mark instead of slightly to the left as shown in the picture.

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Good, sounds normal.

Do you have a link to the online manual? In case you don't here it is:

http://iihs.net/fsm/?dir=159&viewfile=Engine.pdf

beware of those timing marks!!!!! their location relative to being spot-on CHANGE when turned!!!! If you install the chains on the marks with covers off, then turn the engine one complete turn, the chain marks will no longer be lined up with the sprocket marks.

If one side is on the mark but the other is not, you have a problem.
Pull the front cover and go from there. Hopefully you didn't bend a valve.

In Bruce's link to the timing marks, the dimple on the face of the lower sprocket should be at a 6:00 position and be where both chains line up to on the bottom.