suspension setup for street questions

so i want to put a little bit of my tax return towards the suspension, i currently have:
k springs
gt500 front strut mounts
frpp dampers
j&m adj panhard bar
camber bolts
front strut tower brace

i was wondering what sway bars i should go with for street use and something for road course (but not serious racing) for fun. i want to grab a set of j&m lca's for the rear. is it really necessary for brackets? i know that question has been beat to death for racing but for street use would it be fine without them?

Street use? Leave them alone. You aren't going to gain anything other than a slight weight reduction of your pocket.

I've said it before, I'll say it again, if you've never been on track, I'll promise you aren't past 6/10ths on the street.

Go for a arm bushings and rear lower control arms. What are you doing with it? Drag, auto x, road race?

06silverbullet said:

for street use and something for road course (but not serious racing) for fun.

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Even at this level, lose the camber bolts and get either a proper set of camber plates or the Steeda HD strut mounts (which have camber adjustability).

Do that before you do anything else on your list. Seriously.

With respect to the relo brackets, what are you looking to improve by possibly installing them? They have more than one effect.




Boldface in the quote is for RR350's benefit


Norm

You need to get a set of Koni 2817 shocks.....

Norm Peterson said:

Even at this level, lose the camber bolts and get either a proper set of camber plates or the Steeda HD strut mounts (which have camber adjustability).

Do that before you do anything else on your list. Seriously.

With respect to the relo brackets, what are you looking to improve by possibly installing them? They have more than one effect.




Boldface in the quote is for RR350's benefit


Norm

Click to expand...

the camber bolts are just there to correct alignment from lowering

less wheel hop, i drag race as well as want to use the care maybe once or twice on a road course. i know it's impossible to be good at both. i just want someto enjoy at both even if i'm not "competitive"

Camber bolts have a tendency to slip under hard cornering. Get rid of them.

06silverbullet said:

the camber bolts are just there to correct alignment from lowering

Click to expand...

I know what they're supposed to do.

I can't agree with doing camber correction the way that most (if not all) of the aftermarket bolts are set up for, never mind when there's the least hint that you aren't always going to drive mildly. Ford's own "camber bolts" excepted, which allow the full strut fastener torque to be applied.


Norm

Norm Peterson said:

Even at this level, lose the camber bolts and get either a proper set of camber plates or the Steeda HD strut mounts (which have camber adjustability).

Do that before you do anything else on your list. Seriously.

With respect to the relo brackets, what are you looking to improve by possibly installing them? They have more than one effect.




Boldface in the quote is for RR350's benefit


Norm

Click to expand...

Yea I missed that. Had a dirka dirka moment

06silverbullet said:

the camber bolts are just there to correct alignment from lowering

less wheel hop, i drag race as well as want to use the care maybe once or twice on a road course. i know it's impossible to be good at both. i just want someto enjoy at both even if i'm not "competitive"

Click to expand...

Wheel hop is more of an OE bushing matter than something properly fixed with relo brackets.

Since you intend to do both drag racing and road course lapping, you'll be better off overall to set the axle side of the LCAs about the same amount lower as the car is lowered. IOW, if you lower the car by 1", you'd like to have some relo bracket holes that are 1" lower than the OE holes. You'll still have a lot more anti-squat than OE, and you'll get it without making the axle get tailhappy on you out on the road course (or during an evasive street maneuver).


Norm

Once I did the control arms, upper and lowers I had no more wheel hop what so ever. If you do the relocation bracket and intend to road race leave it in the top hole. I don't know how your frpp's and k springs would compare to what I'm running but with the stock brembo sway bars (I think they are different than the standard?) I did not feel a need to change the bar at all when I was at infineon with the car. I would say take that sway bar money and sign up for a NASA day at the track!

06silverbullet said:

k springs

Click to expand...

Get rid of those K springs before you do anything.

Norm Peterson said:

Wheel hop is more of an OE bushing matter than something properly fixed with relo brackets.

Since you intend to do both drag racing and road course lapping, you'll be better off overall to set the axle side of the LCAs about the same amount lower as the car is lowered. IOW, if you lower the car by 1", you'd like to have some relo bracket holes that are 1" lower than the OE holes. You'll still have a lot more anti-squat than OE, and you'll get it without making the axle get tailhappy on you out on the road course (or during an evasive street maneuver).


Norm

Click to expand...

Unfortunately there are no such brackets (1" drop for LCA) due to it being impossible, without the end user making serious modification.

2" is about as "high" as you can get it with bracket that does not require extensive modding.

As for your recommendation, it is surely a good one like always. That being said, there are many people who are successfully running a substantial amount more AS than what you are recommending, on a road course.

Taking your recommendation and doubling it, is my recommendation.

1" drop = 2" drop for LCA
1.5" drop = 3" drop for LCA
2" drop = 4" drop for LCA

Of course, this is very general, but these are the settings at which my customer have their best results in pretty much every setting.

My car had wheel hop problems with poly bushings. It took brackets to fix the problem.


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Norm Peterson said:

With respect to the relo brackets, what are you looking to improve by possibly installing them? They have more than one effect.


Norm

Click to expand...

What Norm was hinting at (besides using camber bolts) is roll steer caused from having too steep of LCA inclination from the use of relo brackets, which is gonna be dependent on your spring choice.

If you are bent on relo's you can get different springs that lower the rear more or spend your money on an adjustable UCA and get your antisquat from that instead of the relo's. By getting the antisquat from the UCA, you skip all the oversteer danger.

Million ways to skin the cat.

Trying to get that car good at 1/4 mile and good a road course is not ideal. Given that, adjustable UCA and Koni Yellows would play well in both fields I think. Spring rates are probably gonna be where it starts messing up the dual role.

Absolutely ^

Now, you can have a combination that works "good" in both, with minor changes....but definitely will not have a combo that works "excellent" in both.

A great example would be the AED Mustang that ran basically a handling-style suspension set-up, yet dominated the drag-strip, with a manual trans to boot.

The key to having a multi-performer is having adjustability among the components, and of course a good tire for each task.

sheizasosay said:

What Norm was hinting at (besides using camber bolts) is roll steer caused from having too steep of LCA inclination from the use of relo brackets, which is gonna be dependent on your spring choice.

If you are bent on relo's you can get different springs that lower the rear more or spend your money on an adjustable UCA and get your antisquat from that instead of the relo's. By getting the antisquat from the UCA, you skip all the oversteer danger.

Million ways to skin the cat.

Trying to get that car good at 1/4 mile and good a road course is not ideal. Given that, adjustable UCA and Koni Yellows would play well in both fields I think. Spring rates are probably gonna be where it starts messing up the dual role.

Click to expand...

How is that accomplished?

An adjustable UCA mount. The BMR one I have allows an alternate mounting hole that is lower. This alone, a 1"ish drop of that hole, will increase AS a lot. This extra hole I speak of is where the UCA connects to the mount.

Wait...is the AS what you were referring to? I just assumed.

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I think he is referring to the Upper Mount, like ours, that have more than one UCA mounting point.

The top hole in ours is the factory angle, the lower position shortens the Instant Center.

You will not get the same Anti-Squat characteristics, putting the IC point at the same distance from the rear-end when using the UCA, compared to the LCA.

Lowering the UCA shortens the instant center, but also lowers it. Lowering the LCA shortens the instant center, but raises it..

Here is a picture I just drew for you:


Here is a pic a pic of our mount:

Annnnnd here is a picture I drew "back in the day" when I had to show a certain company my general knowledge about suspension geometry.

You can basically place the results of the picture above, on to this and kinda get some ideas...