2013 GT500 Oil Pump and 4.6 3v comparisons.

[BruceH]

I purchased a 2013,14 GT500 oil pump for the billet steel back plate. I had planned on swapping plates and calling it a day but in the end I swapped the pressure relief springs and retainers.

Along the way I took some pictures and measurements. The main difference is the longer and stiffer spring used on the GT500 pump. This has been previously reported but I have a few more pics and comparisons.



Pump housings side by side. 2013 is on the left. The 2013 had about .005" less depth for the rotors than the 3v had. It also had about .020" less depth for the pressure relief spring.



Georotors stacked on top of each other. 3v are on top. The 2013 were about .002" thicker than the 3v rotors.



Insides of the back plates are a little different.



During reassembly I overtorqued a screw. Luckily I had this left over from my first slave cylinder swap during which I overtorqued a slave cylinder bolt.

FYI 100 inch pounds is the torque for the backplate. If you try 145 because you aren't thinking it will strip the threads at about 120. I had torqued everything to 100 and then stepped up to 145. After the first screw stripped I rechecked and found 100 inch pounds to be the correct torque. 65 inch pounds would hold these fasteners just fine. The 100 inch pound reference came from a shm book.

 

[Department Of Boost]

The shorter spring should be stiffer. The wire diameter looks the same. Any chance you measured their rate?

 

[skwerl]

This should probably be in tech. Thanks for the detailed pics, Bruce.

 

[hamish]

Are you willing to part with the GT500 spring?
I am usually run 20W50 and would prefer more of a bypass buffer.

 

[BruceH]

The shorter spring should be stiffer. The wire diameter looks the same. Any chance you measured their rate?

I don't have a way of measuring other than feel. I can tell you that the longer spring is stiffer (has more resistance) and there was more resistance when unscrewing it.

Hamish, I can part with the spring. The whole pump is around $66 iirc and has the billet steel back plate. If you are going to tear into the motor enough to get at the pump you might as well do the plate.

 

[hamish]

$66!! Yeah I think I'll just grab a new one, Thanks BruceH

 

[skwerl]

Got a part number for that pump? Save me the trouble.

 

[BruceH]

Got a part number for that pump? Save me the trouble.

Here is a link to the whole lubrication parts section for the 2013 GT500. FRPP also has a combo of a pickup, 8.5 quart aluminum oil pan, and combo gasket/windage tray/crank scraper for under $180.

http://parts.autonationfordwhitebea...cleid=382753&section=ENGINE&group=LUBRICATION

http://parts.autonationfordwhitebea...o&PartID=1193534&siteid=214771&catalogid=5684

 

[skwerl]

But will that pan and windage tray fit a 3v correctly?

 

[BruceH]

But will that pan and windage tray fit a 3v correctly?

I'm waiting for you to buy one and try it out, lol.

 

[stkjock]

Are the gears billet?

Brian when u put ur stroker in, I suggest a upgraded gear set, TSS makes a good one.

 

[skwerl]

Maybe I'm out of the loop but I simply have not heard of the stock oil pumps failing. Maybe 15 years ago, but how many oil pumps have failed in the s197 Mustangs?

 

[stkjock]

It is not common but it happens. TSS has sold 100s of billet gear sets.

Spend $300 to save a $6000-8000 short block swap. seems like cheap insurance and money well spent, it was worth it to me.

You race the car, all it could take is one good rattle of the crank and shattered gears take out the motor.

 

[rayS197]

A hard decision I had to make as well regarding the TSS gears. The FRPP block comes with the 2013/14 GT500 HP pump. I took a gamble and chose to save $300 and leave it alone. I also believe Bruces theory of bad balancers playing a role in the failure of the pump.

 

[Department Of Boost]

I don't have a way of measuring other than feel. I can tell you that the longer spring is stiffer (has more resistance) and there was more resistance when unscrewing it.

Interwesting....

In the future if you want to measure spring rate and have a digital scale let me know, I'll walk you through it. It's easy.

And this kind of stuff is supposed to be in TECH Bruce!!!!!! Sheesh!! Get with the program!!

I also believe Bruces theory of bad balancers playing a role in the failure of the pump.

I agree that a bad balancer will not help bump gears.

Additionally I think that blown cars that bottom out the tensioner (which is a LOT of them) also wipe pump gears out. Bottoming the tensioner is like hitting the crank snout with a hammer…..sideways.

 

[BruceH]

Maybe I'm out of the loop but I simply have not heard of the stock oil pumps failing. Maybe 15 years ago, but how many oil pumps have failed in the s197 Mustangs?

It still happens and I still think it's from bad balacers or a poorly balanced rotating assembly.

Something I noticed between the two pumps is less slop in the newer pump. I wonder what the odds are that too much play between the gears has led to a momentary seizure of the gears and subsequent breakage? It would go along with the Ford SVT theory of flex binding the gears which is why they went to a billet back cover.

Until now I've always used the stock 3v pump. My motors always have stock clearances and run 5w-20. I could see using a heavier viscosity oil placing more stress on the geo rotors. Combine that with the other crazy stuff we do like strokers, udps, and questionable machine work and it could all add up.

Edit:

Are the gears billet?

As far as I know they are still powdered metal. Forged powered metal to be correct, lol.

Interwesting....

In the future if you want to measure spring rate and have a digital scale let me know, I'll walk you through it. It's easy.

And this kind of stuff is supposed to be in TECH Bruce!!!!!! Sheesh!! Get with the program!!



I agree that a bad balancer will not help bump gears.

Additionally I think that blown cars that bottom out the tensioner (which is a LOT of them) also wipe pump gears out. Bottoming the tensioner is like hitting the crank snout with a hammer…..sideways.

I still have a digital gunpowder scale from my competition shooting days. It's probably too light in capacity. Whipple has you cut the stop off of the tensioner so it can't bottom. Do you think this has something to do with the bad things that happen when the tensioner bottoms?

 

[AutoXRacer]

Maybe I'm out of the loop but I simply have not heard of the stock oil pumps failing. Maybe 15 years ago, but how many oil pumps have failed in the s197 Mustangs?

Skwerl, you better put some billet gears and the 2013 pump on your build list!!!

 

[one eyed willy]

Maybe I'm out of the loop but I simply have not heard of the stock oil pumps failing. Maybe 15 years ago, but how many oil pumps have failed in the s197 Mustangs?

very common issue...

my first "built motor" lasted 2 years on the stock pump.....

 

[sportinawoody]

toorbeenee also wiped his built , turbo'd motor due to gears. he was running billet gears and sent me a pic of the carnage. couldnt wrap my head around that.

 

[skwerl]

Gmitch posted somewhere that most oil pump failures were due to the belt tensioner bottoming out, which would be like smacking your crank with a sledgehammer- sideways. Seems like the broken oil pump would be a symptom, not the root problem.