3V - S197 - GT500 TB vs Delete Plates - Bang For Buck

[JeffS197]

I already had a similar debate in my head a month ago between Steeda UDPs and the delete plates and the UDPs won the argument for me in the end as a local guy gave me a great (and I mean great) deal on his like new pullies as he removed them to install a blower.

I ended up dropping by Steeda to get them installed which added some cost but it was a good idea anyways as I wanted them to look over some other stuff on my car which they did at the same time. Always great guys to deal with in my experiences (used to dyno my old car there and they were always nice and friendly).

Now that I have some more spare time/money I was dead set on delete plates as my next step and now I am starting to rethink it as my next mod.

Depending on who you ask it seems the following are true for both mods:

1-Either mod with net you between ~0-10HP depending on your other mods/tune.

2-When you add up the cost of the parts (used) and factor in that I would be doing the install myself they seem to cost about the same at first. (comparing a used GT500TB + adaptor vs a used set of the nicer steeda plates)

HOWEVER, it SEEMS the following is also true from what I have read:

PRO-GT500 TB -If you already have a tune for a CAI then the GT500 TB should not require a new tune (though you may not get the full benefit without a custom dyno tune..very expensive in my parts of the woods for a dyno tune.. the tune alone is more than the cost of either mod)

CON- the delete plates require a tune regardless and the canned tunes might not be very good and cost money which makes the delete plates substantially more expensive of a mod (almost x2 even with just a canned tune) than the GT500 TB.

CON- the delete plates MIGHT degrade fuel mileage and/or cause possible drivability issues in cold weather (im from canada, so days ranging from freezing cold in the morning to shorts and t-shirt in the afternoon are a real thing here during certain times of the year)

CON - the delete plates will technically make me fail the mandatory province wide emissions tests. Even though the tune from my sct will turn off the dash light for having the motor removed, I am pretty sure the OBD tests they do will see that there is no motor attached and instantly fail me.

So the way things are looking for me right now, in the game of hopefully gaining ~0-10HP....the score is:


+1 point GT500 TB
-3 points delete plates


Also since I have a JLT intake (I think its series 1 or 2) it does not appear that I would need to purchase a new silicone coupling for the GT500 TB like you would have to do with some of the other aftermarket intakes.

Taking into account that I do not have many other mods (CAI,gears,UDPs,mufflers, SCT SF3 canned Bama tunes), are there any other factors I should be considering between the 2 mods?

OR are there other similarly priced mods I should be instead considering that would provide similar HP results? Only other mods I can think of in the same price range is a catless H or X (and that catless pipes are illegal here )

Final questions/thoughts... on a lightly tuned vehicle like mine, do you think the gains people are seeing from the gt500 tb swaps are simply from the fact that a spacer is being added? I know spacers alone are not a very worth while mod, though it would be pretty funny if the majority of the gains for lightly modded cars could simply be attributed to the spacer and not the larger throttle bodies themselves.

I am also kind of skepticle of the "improved throttle response" and really to me it would just seem that whatever tune you have in the car is just not calibrated for use with a larger TB so it is sort of a placebo effect. sort of like the difference in throttle mappings between a "street" tune and a "race" tune (IE same amount of right foot just opens throttle different amount, but really the car isnt making any MORE power if all other things were equal and you were going wide open throttle, just opening the throttle more/earlier at part throttle making you think it is etc - rant - man I miss cable throttles)

SIDEBAR:

Considering the bolt ons I already have, here is a synopsis of what it is like to currently drive the car:

0-25% throttle - wow this thing picks up pretty good
25%-75% throttle - jeez this thing seems faster than I thought
75%-100% throttle - needs more power..

I am not expecting either mod to be a night and day difference by any means, just looking for something to at least help a bit at WOT.

Thanks for any insight you might have.

 

[lindertw]

I have an '05 with the following:
K&N CAI, steeda UDP, steeda CMDP, FRPP shorty headers, FRPP GTA mufflers, power steering delete short belt, otherwise stock engine (still have OEM cats in place as I have to pass state emissions).

I just had the CMDP's installed, and a race tune done at JPC racing (link); zero drivability issues (albeit I'm not in the colder northern climate), no degradation in MPG, and I just passed state emissions without issue... FWIW, I had a chance to chat with Justin @ JPC while Kevin was working his magic on the dyno. Justin said he wouldn't spend my money on a throttle body, his only real recommendation was to consider getting an off-road h/x pipe and ditch the cats.

good luck!

 

[JeffS197]

do you have obd testing or just the dyno/sniffer routine?

we no longer put our cars on dynos here or run a sniffer device. They visually inspect everything and then they plug into obd and look for ANYTHING they can find so that they can fail you from what I am told. the guy I bought the car from removed the sct tune and even put on the stock airbox when he got the e test done. he said he had to or it would fail.

if I could pass with things (CMDP motor cel/o2 cel) turned off then I could just run catless exhaust with fake clamshells that make it look like cats and CMDPs and as long as there is no code...hmmm

 

[JeffS197]

shorty headers also seem to be a hit and miss depending on whos thread you are reading. aside from the rough install, I know the peak gains may not be impressive, but did the curve gains seem worth it to you? There is like night and day difference in reviews on the exact same headers online depending on where you are reading. Its hard to tell if they are worth while. Maybe I will look into them after I decide on plates or TB.

or maybe I should just forget all this mess and just save for an aluminium driveshaft..
cheapest one I have found is about $1000 locally (CDN currency) or about the same as GT500TB kit+delete plates+dyno tune.

 

[lindertw]

emissions testing is via OBD-II, with visual for cats. most folks poo-poo shorty headers... they were on the car when I bought it (along with the K&N CAI).

You can compare numbers and area under the curve: latest dyno tune vs. when I bought the car (k&n cai, frpp shorties/gta mufflers, no tune). More importantly, here's the track results (with excellent prep and negative DA):

I would skip the 1pc alum driveshaft

 

[MassMustang]

I did my CMDPs with an updated tune. I think it has more pickup above 2500 RPMs. I've read the throttle body is a waste until you have a blower pushing major boost. I'd love a 1-piece aluminum driveshaft myself, but I'm only hoping for less clunkiness.

So, my vote? Do the CMDPs unless you're thinking blower in the near future. Though, a centrifuga blower would match well with the CMDPs.

Some money better spent? Upgraded gears!

Good luck!

 

[JeffS197]

thanks. already got the 373s I dont think I want to go 410s as I commute on the highway alot.

 

[NickD87]

Hey Jeff
I would say skip the TB I don't think it would make a noticeable difference.
I actually vote the gears as well (I just had 4.10s installed, but got a bad set) the difference is amazing and at 120km I was at 2500rpm
Are you planning on racing the car at all?
To be honest as far as feel and enjoyment of the car your going to feel a bigger change and benefit from suspension upgrades.

 

[JeffS197]

I dont plan to go racing , just looking for some more power with simple bolt on mods that I can live with on the daily commute.

I think if I decide to do the delete plates I am going to look a little more into the DIY method and just spend money on a mail order tune for them. That should keep costs down and then I should be in for under $200 for ~10HP. If I am still bored I guess the TB is always an option at that point.

As much as I know you shouldnt trust people selling you product in most cases as far as performance claims go, I keep getting hung up on this. Maybe the guys has a secret blower on the car thats not pictured lol

"In conclusion this is a great kit for the money and the performance gains are like nothing I would have ever expected from a throttle body swap."

http://www.latemodelrestoration.com/products/Mustang-GT500-Throttle-Body-Installation-2005-10

 

[Pentalab]

I dont plan to go racing , just looking for some more power with simple bolt on mods that I can live with on the daily commute.

I think if I decide to do the delete plates I am going to look a little more into the DIY method and just spend money on a mail order tune for them. That should keep costs down and then I should be in for under $200 for ~10HP. If I am still bored I guess the TB is always an option at that point.

As much as I know you shouldnt trust people selling you product in most cases as far as performance claims go, I keep getting hung up on this. Maybe the guys has a secret blower on the car thats not pictured lol

"In conclusion this is a great kit for the money and the performance gains are like nothing I would have ever expected from a throttle body swap."

http://www.latemodelrestoration.com/products/Mustang-GT500-Throttle-Body-Installation-2005-10

The article above is incorrect. The oem TB is a twin 55mm... NOT a twin 52mm. Going from twin 55mm to twin 60mm is a waste of effort on a NA car. I swapped from the oem twin 55mm to a FRPP twin 62mm... and noticed very little improvement....and that's with a M90 blower installed on my 2010..... 5-6 rwhp at most. Most tuners will tell you, you are wasting your time with a bigger TB on a NA eng. You might see 0-1hp at most with an na eng.

Twin 55 to twin 60mm means the twin 60mm has 19% bigger cross sectional surface area. The throttle response for a given amount of TB opening (say 45 degs) will be greater for the bigger TB. But the throttle response can be tweaked in the tune anyway. Some tunes will provide for much greater throttle response, giving the illusion of .."more power".
Spend the $$ else where. What really made a big difference was the ceramic coated JBA LT's + catted H. The story I got was the OEM H section has a 2.5" diam disc inside it.... with a 1.5" hole dead center in the disc. The 08/09 bullitt cars got a puny 3/8" hole in the same disc...to get the 'bullitt sound'. Any after market H has no disc in it, and you get the full 2.5" ID in the H section. The H section won't scavenge correctly with the oem restriction inside of it. I'd opt to remove the disc entirely on an oem exhaust setup. Since the H is aft of the oem cats, you won't require a tune either.

TB spacers is just pure bs for hp gains. It's used on the GT-500 twin 60mm tb... when used as an adaptor for the 4.6L eng manifold intake. Once you are at > 550-600rwhp, then the bigger twin 62mm TB will buy you another .5 psi of boost..and even less with the twin 60mm.

 

[JeffS197]

ya thats what I was thinking (see first post) about the throttle position (that the "gains" felt are just a result of the throttle allowing more air at partial throttle, but no actual gains at WOT).

Talking Delete Plates..

Since there is no way to do a true apples to apples comparison (since they require a tune to be optimized and who knows if some of the gains are just in the tune itself vs previous tune).

I am wondering..

If I was to put the plates into a fixed full open position, then load a delete plate tune I could probably do a much more accurate comparison of how much power is actually gained by removing the plates.. I wonder how different it would be.

Yes I understand that the plates are still a restriction at WOT to a certain degree, but I wonder how much of the gains people are getting are from actually deleting them VS the fact that the tune they need to run the delete plates may be much more aggressive than the tune they are replacing, + the benefit of having the plates open at all rpm.

Since I would have to order a tune anyways and it looks fairly simple to just put the plates into a static full open position I think I am going to try the before and after (loading delete plate tune and having plates static open VS loading delete plate tune and actually deleting the plates) just to see if the majority of gains felt are from loading the "possibly" more aggressive tune and being able to have the plates always open VS actually deleting the plates.

If someone has already tried this please let me know their results.

Thanks, Jeff

 

[JeffS197]

an interesting read:

" Then went back to the shop and they tweaked a few things in my tune. WOW what a difference I felt just from having the plates put to all open."

http://mustangforums.com/forum/2005-2014-mustangs/534536-charge-motion-delete-plates.html

I think I am just going to purchase a tune for the delete plates and then set the plates to fully open and see how it goes for now. If there is not much difference or the car runs like crap I will pull them out and remove the plates myself and reinstall.

 

[NickD87]

two posts below that one id this post
"another thing against the use of plate deletes on an N/A car, you WILL lose Tq on the low end with the butterflies removed (deletes installed). Ask doug or brent (bamachips/brenspeed respectively). Deletes are best for boosted cars or those that have cams where the loss in low end TQ is well made up for by the power adder."

Cams and centrifugal blowers actually decrease low end torque as well, outside of getting the ford racing manifold (which NA is mostly for looks) I think I like the idea of more torque for driving normally
this was posted in a similar thread

You would soften the bottom end and gain power up top.

This is my dyno bone stock and with hotrods/FRPP throttle body and intake/BBK shorty headers.

 

[MassMustang]

I wish I had a before and after dyno from this spring. I installed some CMDPs and retuned. I certainly don't feel like I lost low end power (definitely not as much as shown in that dyno above) but I certainly DO feel the power band stretch a bit more into the higher RPMs.

I think the CMDPs will be a great mod NA or FI. A throttle body only if pushing some major boost.

 

[702GT]

Wow, I feel slightly butt-hurt about the "cams and centri blowers decrease low-end torque" comment. FWIW, if I put the go-pedal down at 1500rpm, I make 2½ psi, and I'll be happy to stack that torque curve against a NA bolt on 4.6 sucking atmosphere any day.

OP, the CMCV's are not emissions equipment, your car is not going to fail a OBDII smog for not having them. Unless they can detect that your car is tuned, and if that tune is against emissions code in your area, then that's different. Otherwise, it's simply turning them off in the tune, and accounting for lower velocity air in the lower powerband. Again, this isn't like turning off the catalyst in the tune for an O/R mid-pipe. They have nothing to do with emissions.

As for the GT500 TB, you absolutely do require a tune for the TB. The stock TB's throttle angles will not work with the GT500's. You'll certainly throw codes as well as run into drivability issues.

Here's the thing with natural aspiration, throttle body sizes, and CMCV supported intake manifolds. The 4.6 is not a lot of cubes, it was always quickly recognized in the 2v predecessor as being short on torque, and lacked that "umph" that one expects from a V8. CMCV's help by restricting intake runner diameter. When you move air from a larger opening to a smaller opening, the air decreases in volume and increases velocity. This fast moving air, into the combustion chamber and out the exhaust, creates additional torque that would otherwise not be possible without the controlled restriction. So when you tip into the gas pedal from a stop or slow roll, the engine doesn't have to wait for that air to hurry up and get into the combustion chamber. It's already hauling ass. This gives you that snappy, torquey throttle response.

Natural aspiration is a game of give and take. If you want more power without the assistance of FI or N2O, you have only 2 options. Add more displacement, free up air flow potential, and rev it to the moon. (Rev it to the moon is more or less mandatory, so I don't count it as an option, lol.) I played this game with my 4.6 for 5 years before I succumb to boost. Best I could do was 365whp/324wtq NA (roughly $3500-4,000 in bolt-ons, I could have easily spent on a blower and saved myself the trouble... but the looks of admiration you get when your cams are thumpin a sick exhaust note at a car show are priceless...). In none of my combo's did the GT500 TB have any positive effect, in fact I actually made slightly less torque with the GT500 TB in my last NA combo. Remember how bigger opening's = slower moving air? GT500 TB is a fairly fat opening. I simply didn't have the head flow or cubic inches to use the amount of air the GT500 TB flows on the top end, so I saw no gains up top in return for my loss down low.

My vote is a no on the GT500 TB. And a yes for the CMDP's *only* as a safety mod, for the possibility of them failing shut, they could potentially damage the engine.

The CMDP can free up some ponies in the mid-high rpm range. You will suffer torque loss initially. When tuning for CMDP's, most tuners compensate by giving some extra timing in the low range. It won't be that stock torque snap, but it's better than a swift kick in the balls. Personally, until you do cams or something more serious (FI, N2O) I'd leave the CMCV's on the car. My g/f's '07 GT is bone stock with a catback, and I'm always impressed with how torquey her car is off the line. I always said if we did cams on her car, I would keep her CMCV's just to see if it helped absorb the torque loss you get when running an aftermarket NA cam.

Just my $0.02

 

[Exley]

. Here's the thing with natural aspiration, throttle body sizes, and CMCV supported intake manifolds. The 4.6 is not a lot of cubes, it was always quickly recognized in the 2v predecessor as being short on torque, and lacked that "umph" that one expects from a V8. CMCV's help by restricting intake runner diameter. When you move air from a larger opening to a smaller opening, the air decreases in volume and increases velocity. This fast moving air, into the combustion chamber and out the exhaust, creates additional torque that would otherwise not be possible without the controlled restriction. So when you tip into the gas pedal from a stop or slow roll, the engine doesn't have to wait for that air to hurry up and get into the combustion chamber. It's already hauling ass. This gives you that snappy, torquey throttle response.

Natural aspiration is a game of give and take. If you want more power without the assistance of FI or N2O, you have only 2 options. Add more displacement, free up air flow potential, and rev it to the moon. (Rev it to the moon is more or less mandatory, so I don't count it as an option, lol.) I played this game with my 4.6 for 5 years before I succumb to boost. Best I could do was 365whp/324wtq NA (roughly $3500-4,000 in bolt-ons, I could have easily spent on a blower and saved myself the trouble... but the looks of admiration you get when your cams are thumpin a sick exhaust note at a car show are priceless...). In none of my combo's did the GT500 TB have any positive effect, in fact I actually made slightly less torque with the GT500 TB in my last NA combo. Remember how bigger opening's = slower moving air? GT500 TB is a fairly fat opening. I simply didn't have the head flow or cubic inches to use the amount of air the GT500 TB flows on the top end, so I saw no gains up top in return for my loss down low.

My vote is a no on the GT500 TB. And a yes for the CMDP's *only* as a safety mod, for the possibility of them failing shut, they could potentially damage the engine.

The CMDP can free up some ponies in the mid-high rpm range. You will suffer torque loss initially. When tuning for CMDP's, most tuners compensate by giving some extra timing in the low range. It won't be that stock torque snap, but it's better than a swift kick in the balls. Personally, until you do cams or something more serious (FI, N2O) I'd leave the CMCV's on the car. My g/f's '07 GT is bone stock with a catback, and I'm always impressed with how torquey her car is off the line. I always said if we did cams on her car, I would keep her CMCV's just to see if it helped absorb the torque loss you get when running an aftermarket NA cam.

Just my $0.02

+1 I never really got the draw of CMDPs as an early mod. I would think it is just because they are an inexpensive one. I see it more of an "I don't need these anymore" mod when you have done other N/A mods or gone FI. You've already screwed up what they were tuned to do at that point lol

if i put on my tinfoil hat for a second. I wonder if tuners recommend them because it makes things easier. You only have one timing table to worry about when they are deleted

 

[702GT]

+1 I never really got the draw of CMDPs as an early mod. I would think it is just because they are an inexpensive one. I see it more of an "I don't need these anymore" mod when you have done other N/A mods or gone FI. You've already screwed up what they were tuned to do at that point lol

if i put on my tinfoil hat for a second. I wonder if tuners recommend them because it makes things easier. You only have one timing table to worry about when they are deleted

My tuner actually recommended keeping them, but at the time i was drag racing the car at the track, so I wanted max potential up top. Being that I was launching the car at 5500rpm I wasnt terribly concerned with any torque loss in the lower powerband.

 

[AnotherS197GT]

I'd skip both of them. I have CMCVs on my car right now and I'm very happy with them. I had CMDPs on the car a few years ago with cams and I noticed an immediate low end torque loss. It really sucked and I took a hit on my gas mileage as well. I'm so much happier with my low end torque now with the stock butterflies in place. That throttle body is a waste of time too. Do a set of long tubes or delete the cats. If you don't want to do that, take yourself out to dinner. It will be more fun than having CMDPs or a GT500 throttle body on your car.

 

[JeffS197]

The story I got was the OEM H section has a 2.5" diam disc inside it.... with a 1.5" hole dead center in the disc. The 08/09 bullitt cars got a puny 3/8" hole in the same disc...to get the 'bullitt sound'. Any after market H has no disc in it, and you get the full 2.5" ID in the H section. The H section won't scavenge correctly with the oem restriction inside of it. I'd opt to remove the disc entirely on an oem exhaust setup. Since the H is aft of the oem cats, you won't require a tune either.

Maybe I could just drop by a muffler shop on the way home and have them cut out the stock H pipe where the restriction is and replace with normal pipe and forget the aftermarket H altogether.

 

[lindertw]

Maybe I could just drop by a muffler shop on the way home and have them cut out the stock H pipe where the restriction is and replace with normal pipe and forget the aftermarket H altogether.

pics of the bullitt h-pipe restriction: http://www.imboc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=168430
interested to see how yours looks when you cut it up
http://www.imboc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=168430