A new product to help with the 5.0 coyote #8 cylinder problem

[captdistraction]

To that regard I agree. I just meant above it was made to sound like #8 wasn't a weak point of the motor, especially when tuned. I think we have enough failures to show that if you're marginal, #8 is likely first to go.

Though ill admit I lost an exhaust valve on 7 from detonation first. Finding #8 in pieces was coincidence. I wonder how long it would have gone like that before the damage on the cylinder wall would have been severe.


Regardless, I look forward to have a motor to test on whether or not this part is snake oil. Might be this upcoming weekend.

 

[wbt]

For testing this mod.....what does your test plan look like? How are you going to get a before and after to compare against? What parameters are you planning to monitor to determine the effectiveness?

How are you going to know if this does or doesn't work?

 

[captdistraction]

For testing this mod.....what does your test plan look like? How are you going to get a before and after to compare against? What parameters are you planning to monitor to determine the effectiveness?

How are you going to know if this does or doesn't work?

There's a good chance I won't know if it works or not. I have no bias on the part one way or another (certainly hope it helps, but that remains to be seen)

I think the only reasonable test for this is to measure the contact heat off the machined pieces while capped, then install the crossover tube, and re-measure. Also log CHT in both configurations, in theory, CHT should rise slightly when connected.

However, I think this is going to end up being marginal to the point of n/a high volt COP kits, big n/a throttle bodies, etc. Additionally, I'm not sure I'm a great test bed since everything is upgraded or not-stock.

I'm certainly open to any other guidance on the testing. it will be hard to duplicate scenarios without using a dyno, but maybe I can find some matches testing against oil temp or water temp.

 

[wbt]

That is the point I was trying to make.....regardless if fluid does flow between the heads, there isn't a way to know if it does anything without having the capability to perform a before and after test.

In your case, there are way to many changes being made to have an accurate way to compare so that leads back to the vendor testing to which they can't provide any concrete data to back their claim with.

I am not sure measuring temp on the caps will matter. You have to dig deeper but that is assuming #8 does indeed run hotter and if so under what conditions. I want to see concrete proof that it does.

Here is the MMR statement I have a major issue with:

some have asked why #4 does not do the same, easy, it does have the higher temps but it does not have the issues that # 8 has because #4 has the temp sensor screwed right into it and so it only takes an accurate sample of the passenger bank and advances or retards the timing based on just this bank.

This is a load of BS and I will tell you why....the knock sensors are designed to monitor ANY knock detected independent of the coolant temp. There are 2 knock sensors, one for each bank. If your tuner is not meddling around and "desensitizing/disabling" them, they will do their job and retard timing on detection.

What has been causing failures with regards to tuning is running too much timing and changing the knock sensors leading to prolonged detonation. Changing the path of coolant flow isn't going to solve for that.

 

[nasty281]

IMO the reason we're not seeing #8 failures anymore is b/c tuners are finally learning there limits and to specifically tune these cars

 

[captdistraction]

That is the point I was trying to make.....regardless if fluid does flow between the heads, there isn't a way to know if it does anything without having the capability to perform a before and after test.

In your case, there are way to many changes being made to have an accurate way to compare so that leads back to the vendor testing to which they can't provide any concrete data to back their claim with.

I am not sure measuring temp on the caps will matter. You have to dig deeper but that is assuming #8 does indeed run hotter and if so under what conditions. I want to see concrete proof that it does.

Here is the MMR statement I have a major issue with:


This is a load of BS and I will tell you why....the knock sensors are designed to monitor ANY knock detected independent of the coolant temp. There are 2 knock sensors, one for each bank. If your tuner is not meddling around and "desensitizing/disabling" them, they will do their job and retard timing on detection.

What has been causing failures with regards to tuning is running too much timing and changing the knock sensors leading to prolonged detonation. Changing the path of coolant flow isn't going to solve for that.

True, the knock sensors should be handling this.

I think there's a mindset with the #8's (and rightfully so), that the common denominator was knock and reduced ability in the calibration in the knock parameters to get the timing backed off in time. i think most tuners have realized this and have stopped screwing the parameters best left alone. I still don't see the point in the adjustments that were being made. My mail-order tune required a retune to get it out of heavy knock sensor readings on the dyno. It still came apart 12 months later.

With this said, I can see a product being born from that to "address" the "issue".

However, yes, I agree that they should be handling the engineering and testing of the part, really the only effective test I can think of is to drill and tap the head or block (effectively trashing it) through a water jacket for a sensor and look at the water temps while on an engine dyno or in a car.

 

[cshiznitzj]

Although not practical for the average person, an engineering approach would to run CFD model to see what really helps.

Ford Engineers would have already done CFD analysis during the design process; not to say that it couldn't be improved but engineering must be stopped at some point to meet budget/schedule constraints.

 

[UltraKla$$ic]

Capt.

With all due respect. Put the mod on your car but PLEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEASE get someone else that has a freakin clue to tune your car. The one you had can't tune a lawnmower with a decent outcome. If you choose to go back with the same tuner, expect the same results as you've been digging yourself out of but at least the MMR mod would survive.

Seriously. Go with someone else to tune your car, stay on top of datalogs and tuner feedback, and I'm confident your motor will last a good long time...............unless you forget to put oil and water in it.

Don't tempt the tuning Gods by using the same tuner, dismal outcome to ensue..............lol

I'm excited for you to put this behind you and enjoy your car!

 

[Sky Render]

Capt.

With all due respect. Put the mod on your car but PLEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEASE get someone else that has a freakin clue to tune your car. The one you had can't tune a lawnmower with a decent outcome. If you choose to go back with the same tuner, expect the same results as you've been digging yourself out of but at least the MMR mod would survive.

Seriously. Go with someone else to tune your car, stay on top of datalogs and tuner feedback, and I'm confident your motor will last a good long time...............unless you forget to put oil and water in it.

Don't tempt the tuning Gods by using the same tuner, dismal outcome to ensue..............lol

I'm excited for you to put this behind you and enjoy your car!

QFT

 

[JJ@WMS]

This is a load of BS and I will tell you why....the knock sensors are designed to monitor ANY knock detected independent of the coolant temp. There are 2 knock sensors, one for each bank. If your tuner is not meddling around and "desensitizing/disabling" them, they will do their job and retard timing on detection.

What has been causing failures with regards to tuning is running too much timing and changing the knock sensors leading to prolonged detonation. Changing the path of coolant flow isn't going to solve for that.

We are doing a motor in a car now that had a tune not from us with the 5 degrees of global timing/knock sensor disabling/desensitzing and it pushed out #8 and the piston got damaged. Transferring what you knew about 3V tuning into the Coyote platform gave great dyno numbers when the cars first hit the dyno's but ever since its pretty much leveled out because they learned not to do that.

I remember the days of 430hp with just a tune and CAI when these cars first came out and guess how that was achieved?

Also just check out the lack of support for the coolant jackets around the cylinders in the block on these engines and you will see another reason why there is a problem.

JJ

 

[captdistraction]

Capt.

With all due respect. Put the mod on your car but PLEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEASE get someone else that has a freakin clue to tune your car. The one you had can't tune a lawnmower with a decent outcome. If you choose to go back with the same tuner, expect the same results as you've been digging yourself out of but at least the MMR mod would survive.

Seriously. Go with someone else to tune your car, stay on top of datalogs and tuner feedback, and I'm confident your motor will last a good long time...............unless you forget to put oil and water in it.

Don't tempt the tuning Gods by using the same tuner, dismal outcome to ensue..............lol

I'm excited for you to put this behind you and enjoy your car!

For sure, I'm not using the same tuner, and will be logging everything. I'm also using some aeroforce gauges to monitor knock, and setting up the alert outputs, etc. I don't want to ever go through this mess again.

 

[UltraKla$$ic]

For sure, I'm not using the same tuner, and will be logging everything. I'm also using some aeroforce gauges to monitor knock, and setting up the alert outputs, etc. I don't want to ever go through this mess again.

I have all the confidence that when you get your car back together, you'll be a happy camper then!

Again, I'm excited for you to complete this build and get this behind you!

 

[beef97]

so in your opinion do you think this is a worthwhile mod? I know nothing of the coolant flow or path or rate or anything, i'm just interested in it if it will help keep the engine cooler or safer! Appreciate the info and testing done!

We are doing a motor in a car now that had a tune not from us with the 5 degrees of global timing/knock sensor disabling/desensitzing and it pushed out #8 and the piston got damaged. Transferring what you knew about 3V tuning into the Coyote platform gave great dyno numbers when the cars first hit the dyno's but ever since its pretty much leveled out because they learned not to do that.

I remember the days of 430hp with just a tune and CAI when these cars first came out and guess how that was achieved?

Also just check out the lack of support for the coolant jackets around the cylinders in the block on these engines and you will see another reason why there is a problem.

JJ

 

[JJ@WMS]

so in your opinion do you think this is a worthwhile mod? I know nothing of the coolant flow or path or rate or anything, i'm just interested in it if it will help keep the engine cooler or safer! Appreciate the info and testing done!

I have no idea if this will help or not but I honestly doubt that it will.

It kinda falls in line with other mods that I have seen over the years that are a neat idea and get peoples attention but really arent worth the money or do anything useful to help in performance or reliability.

Just because a part is available for purchase does not mean you need it has been my motto for years and doing the most with the least amount of parts is our MO

JJ

 

[Sky Render]

I think a higher-capacity cooling system would help more than this crossover gizmo.

While on the topic, however, I'm thinking of installing an aftermarket water temp gauge. What does everyone think of installing the sending unit in the freeze plug closest to the #8 cylinder?

 

[captdistraction]

not a terrible place to sample water since that would give you a nice warmer reading.

 

[gil_t2]

Some one did this mod a couple years ago on a 3V. They welded AN fittings into the freeze plug holes, but instead of just running a cross over hose they ran the hoses into the valley, into a Y then to the front cross over manifold. That seems worth the time and effort.

 

[gtmiller1001]

For sure, I'm not using the same tuner, and will be logging everything. I'm also using some aeroforce gauges to monitor knock, and setting up the alert outputs, etc. I don't want to ever go through this mess again.

I'm assuming you're talking about the Aeroforce Inteceptor "multi gauge".

Just an FYI...they will not monitor knock on these cars. Timing, AFR, ECT and a lot of other things, but not the actual knock activity or how much timing the sensors pull. Only think you could monitor with those gauges is timing itself but you would have to be staring at the gauge during WOT to see if timing is being pulled. Only/best way to actually monitor knock is datalogging (which you said you're going to do anyways).

Just a friendly heads up not to spend too much time trying to set the Aeroforce gauge to display knock, it won't.

 

[bestmustangparts]

They clearly have the ability to make some cool parts. I just always worry when I see early release products with all kinds of claims. Same thing when they released billet cam spacers, claiming a measurable HP increase.

 

[Scuba-Matt]

Once again on the other site. I have asked for hard data on the cooling Mod, We'll see what kind of answer I get.

Lower temps shown vs what? I want to see data of the rear cylinder head temps with and without the cooling mod. In the same ambient air temperature conditions and same driving conditions. Anyone can say I have cooler temps. Without hard data it's only hear say. If someone can prove the mod works, With hard data, I'll buy it.