Autocross: the bare necessities

[eggwich del fiero]

Hey Carvers,
Love what you guys have done with this place, one of my favorite subforums on the net.

Okay, @sskissing aside, here's my situation. I'm starting my first season of autocross and I'm trying to follow what people say over and over again in here: drive your car to her limits, then make improvements where you find you need them. So that's what I'm going to do.

BUT, it seems like certain replacement parts are a necessity in autocross/competitive driving that I'll have to buy just to stay on the road. So, if you guys would be kind enough to let me know what I will end up needing after a few sessions, I would really appreciate it.

Seems to me I will need:
1. Extra brake pads, preferably the Hawk pads (the racing models I'm guessing).
2. Front rotors from newtakeoff.com

And I guess that's it. Am I missing anything else obvious? I know nicer tires would be nice too, but I'm guessing it takes a while to burn through a set of tires.

I've heard people mention upgraded brake fluid too, but I don't know if that's needed, or suitable for street use.

Any advice appreciated. Just trying to fly my noob flag proudly and get all the help I can.

PS I got 305/30/22s on all four corners. I keed, I keed!

 

[SoundGuyDave]

I will instantly defer to Sam Strano (Stranoparts.com) for specific compound recommendations, but I will be willing to bet that you do NOT want the brake compounds being recommended over in the road-race threads... Most "race" compounds need some amount of heat in them to perform properly, and you won't have the time to get them up to temp in an autocross run. Good fluid, however, is not contraindicated for street driving at all. You most likely will not need the extreme high-end fluids like Motul RBF600 or Castrol SRF, but basic brake maintenance would point you towards at least flushing the brake fluid through on an annual basis.

I honestly don't think autocross is nearly as brutal on the brakes as a road course, but it never hurts to have a spare set of rotors around. This is especially true if you run a different compound for street duty and for autocross runs. When you install new pads, you should bed them in, which transfers a thin layer of the brake material onto the rotor. If you change compounds, you'll need to get a new transfer layer down. No problem changing from street to track, since the more aggressive track compounds will just chew up the street transfer layer, but the other way can be problematic. It's just easier to have a complete pad/rotor set for street and track.

Ping Sam, he'll get you hooked up with the right kit.

 

[Vapour Trails]

My stock brakes (down to the pads) have proved adequate for AutoX. Upgrading the pads is not a bad idea however, and I think that is allowed in F-stock class. As Dave mentioned, you need a pad that will grip w/o heating, road race pads will be worse than stock pads.

What have you done to the car so far? What class were you thinking of competing in? Are you interested in competition or just fun?

Tires and the driver are the biggest factors in Auto X. What are you currently riding on?

 

[RedMosesSC]

I think the bare necesities are more of a mind set than gear for the car, yeah lowering, big brakes and tires will help but seat time and the willingness to identify and correct your bad street driving habits are the biggest factors IMO.

Dont embarrassed or too kool for school to learn from instructers and other racers (even the ricers), have an instructer sit in with you a few times and take their advice. Watch other cars and try and take note as to what they are doing wrong or right. Walk the track as many times as you can before the action starts, take note on the map if provided or try and make a rough sketch for yourself so you can look it over before you go out for your heat.

ALWAYS keep your eye on the gate 2 turns ahead, if your looking at the current gate youll never get the correct angle for the next one and the one after that, some guys even tape the bottom of their windshield to remind them to look ahead.

 

[Cookiemonster]

the best advice iv ever gotten for autoX (for me any ways) was when your driving ask your self if the car feels like its on rails or if it feels loose. If its on rails you could push it more in that section of the track. If its loose well back off a bit.

The other thing is being able to visualize your runs. If you cant even imagine the course your driving how do you expect to drive it? after every run I sit in the car and try and re-run the course to see where i made a mistake and where i need improvements.

 

[SoundGuyDave]

the best advice iv ever gotten for autoX (for me any ways) was when your driving ask your self if the car feels like its on rails or if it feels loose. If its on rails you could push it more in that section of the track. If its loose well back off a bit.

The other thing is being able to visualize your runs. If you cant even imagine the course your driving how do you expect to drive it? after every run I sit in the car and try and re-run the course to see where i made a mistake and where i need improvements.

Awesome advice! Also, try to figure out how to do video of all your runs, they help a LOT when it comes to diagnosing issues. Sometimes a quick look at the video will confirm a bad habit, or will give you a new (slower, clearer) perspective on a particular section or corner.

 

[Cookiemonster]

another thing you may want to pick up is a book called speed secrets. Now don't get me wrong seat time is key, but only when you know what the car is doing. The saying practice makes perfect does not apply to this sport. What if your practicing the wrong thing? you can only improve on what you know you need improvement on.

http://www.amazon.com/Winning-Autocross-Techniques-Speed-Secrets/dp/0760331561/ref=pd_sim_b_7

its 15 bucks and I bring it to every autocross I go to. It helps me focus on something to improve on. check it out

 

[Vapour Trails]

The saying practice makes perfect does not apply to this sport. What if your practicing the wrong thing? you can only improve on what you know you need improvement on.

I'm not sure what you mean by this, generally I get faster with each run of the same course. Getting better through repetition is practice to me.

I see two distinct parts to being fast, 1) knowing the fastest line , and 2) executing. The execution part requires repetition.

If you are talking about getting better at driving in the absence of any specific course or goal, I agree. You can't practice auto x except when you are competing.

 

[SoundGuyDave]

I'm not sure what you mean by this, generally I get faster with each run of the same course. Getting better through repetition is practice to me.

I see two distinct parts to being fast, 1) knowing the fastest line , and 2) executing. The execution part requires repetition.

If you are talking about getting better at driving in the absence of any specific course or goal, I agree. You can't practice auto x except when you are competing.

I think what he's getting at is more technique based... If every corner you come to you brake, release the brake, turn in, track out and THEN get on the gas, you're wasting a lot of time idling around the corner. Practicing the same mistake will not help things.

Here's my formula for getting fast: 1) Know how to FIND the fastest line, and then drive it consistently. 2) brake as late (max time under accel) and as little as possible and still make the corner. 3) turn the wheel as little as possible, and for as short a period of time as possible (think mid-corner rotation) 4) give it as much gas as it will take, as early as possible (think after mid-corner rotation). 5) With everything you do, gas, brake, wheel: be smooth!

All the rotation business is why the expression "loose is fast" holds true. If the rear end sticks like glue, you have to wait for it to get into line before you can gas it. If you can get the car to rotate a little bit, you can unwind the wheel (lower slip angle=less drag -->less speed loss) AND get back on the gas sooner. This is why you see the good drivers coming through the corner with the tail out a few degrees.

 

[Sam Strano]

Hey Carvers,
Love what you guys have done with this place, one of my favorite subforums on the net.

Okay, @sskissing aside, here's my situation. I'm starting my first season of autocross and I'm trying to follow what people say over and over again in here: drive your car to her limits, then make improvements where you find you need them. So that's what I'm going to do.

BUT, it seems like certain replacement parts are a necessity in autocross/competitive driving that I'll have to buy just to stay on the road. So, if you guys would be kind enough to let me know what I will end up needing after a few sessions, I would really appreciate it.

Seems to me I will need:
1. Extra brake pads, preferably the Hawk pads (the racing models I'm guessing).
2. Front rotors from newtakeoff.com

And I guess that's it. Am I missing anything else obvious? I know nicer tires would be nice too, but I'm guessing it takes a while to burn through a set of tires.

I've heard people mention upgraded brake fluid too, but I don't know if that's needed, or suitable for street use.

Any advice appreciated. Just trying to fly my noob flag proudly and get all the help I can.

PS I got 305/30/22s on all four corners. I keed, I keed!

Sounds like you are thinking more track days than autox, might have them confused. Autox is not hard on brakes. Might want better (I at least upgrade to better pads)....

I can help either way. Those 22's aren't going to help anything due to the huge amount of extra rotational mass. I'd recommend lighter wheels/tires if you are serious about performance and to help the brakes out a bit.

Tracking will require better pads and fluid both. Not a bad idea to upgrade the brake lines at the same time as well.

 

[Stangmeister9]

Couple of other parts that are not necesary for auto-x, but may when u decide to take on faster tracks: synthetic brake fluid & better brake lines.

I won't mention brands cause that will call out all the dogs (and this is not what this thread is about).

Do some research on this site and others, there is a wealth of knowledge at your disposal.

One good rule to keep in mind is stay humble you will not learn everything in one event or even one year for that matter. listen to the advice and keep an open mind.

sorry for the double info, posted at the same time as Strano.

 

[Sam Strano]

All the rotation business is why the expression "loose is fast" holds true. If the rear end sticks like glue, you have to wait for it to get into line before you can gas it. If you can get the car to rotate a little bit, you can unwind the wheel (lower slip angle=less drag -->less speed loss) AND get back on the gas sooner. This is why you see the good drivers coming through the corner with the tail out a few degrees.

But loose isn't fast. Balanced is fast because the car be rotated, but also still be stable. Loose is scary. You don't want a pushy pig that's for sure, but loose is generally very bad.

Maybe the term "free" is more applicable.

 

[SoundGuyDave]

But loose isn't fast. Balanced is fast because the car be rotated, but also still be stable. Loose is scary. You don't want a pushy pig that's for sure, but loose is generally very bad.

Maybe the term "free" is more applicable.

Fair enough, let's call that red pubic hair longitudinally sectioned...

What I'm shooting for is mild understeer on entry, neutral through, and mild oversteer on exit. If the chassis is neutral, that's all obtainable with pedal inputs. If the chassis is tight, tight, tight (think stock), it's a little more difficult to do.

 

[Cookiemonster]

I see two distinct parts to being fast, 1) knowing the fastest line

Thats my point! you have to KNOW the fastest line and how to see it.

would a late apex be faster than a double apex or an early apex? there are many ways to tackle a specific turn but one will be faster in a specific car than another. If your practicing the wrong line you will be limited by that.

you have to practice the right thing in order to get better and without proper instruction how would you know which is right?

hope that clarifies my point.

 

[eggwich del fiero]

Wow, thanks everyone. I was nervous even posting here because I'm so new to all this and some auto forums I've been on tear into you for admitting ignorance. I really appreciate all your insights and help.

First off, it DOES sound like I am confusing auto-x and track days, in so far as I thought autocross required replacing the brake pads/rotors real often due to wear. From what I've read here, this doesn't seem to be the case. I will buy a set of better pads, but I'll wear the stock ones down first.

And just to answer a few questions out there, I'm not concerned about being competitive yet, I just want to improve my driving. I am totally open to advice from any and everybody, on and off the course. I will definitely be in the "Novice" division for as long as needed, as I want to get as much input as I can from instructors, peers, anyone, and I'm guessing people are more willing to help novices that are humble.

As far as my car, the 22 inch wheels were just a joke. My car is totally stock, 09 GT with manual transmission with the 17" wheels and Pirelli 235/55/17s that squeal at the slightest provocation. I will upgrade my tires at least at some point, but like I've read on here, I don't want to upgrade anything until I do at least half a dozen autocross days and find out how my car handles stock, and what I think I need to upgrade. (And I realize the most change I can make is improving my own driving; that's my first objective.)

I will definitely contact Sam once I'm ready to make some changes, have heard nothing but great things about you, Sam. Plus I saw that you advertise in North American Pylon; I want to support them as well, love the idea of an auto-x magazine/paper.

Sadly, I live in the city and don't have a garage where I can work on my car to even do simple things, but I am taking an auto mechanics class at night, so I have access to lifts and all that until the end of May. So, by the end of May I hope to identify some changes to make so that I can utilize the garage, tools, and knowledge at my school while I can. (Though I'll probably be there next semester too, I have a lot to learn.)

Sorry for the ramble, and THANK YOU guys! I will check back with more questions as I have them. The tips I've gotten in this thread alone have been helpful, not to mention the rest of this forum.

 

[Sam Strano]

Fair enough, let's call that red pubic hair longitudinally sectioned...

What I'm shooting for is mild understeer on entry, neutral through, and mild oversteer on exit. If the chassis is neutral, that's all obtainable with pedal inputs. If the chassis is tight, tight, tight (think stock), it's a little more difficult to do.

The devil is in the details!!!!

If you can balance the car with input and throttle--that's balance and what we want. I completely agree that in stock trim the cars are very, very tight.

 

[Sleeper_08]

Here is a thread of reading materials. There are some web links near the bottom of the first post

http://mustangforums.com/forum/s197-handling-section/400123-reading-list.html