CAR Fx track car pancaked at Hallett

[dkegel]

I had this passed on to me today. This car is on the cover of the most recent 5.0 Mustangs and Super Fords. Driver and passenger walked away. Amazing...

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/aut...eck-at-hallett-10-24-09-not-corvette-but.html

Dave
I apologize if it is not appropriate to post this here.

 

[RedMosesSC]

Dang, 4 point bolt on did NOTHING! That guy got really lucky, dint see much room for his head in there.

 

[SD07GT]

Dave

I think your next thread should be ......Value of a good roll bar !

 

[jmauld]

Dang, 4 point bolt on did NOTHING! That guy got really lucky, dint see much room for his head in there.

To be fair I don't believe those bars are intended to provide that knd of protection. Cars just aren't designed to be dropped on their tops.

 

[Gray Ghost GT]

Bolt-in roll bars do NOT provide real protection - really just cosmetic = waste of money!! The same 4-point roll bar welded to the frame would have very different results. The sandwiched attachment points for the bolt-in went right through the floor - they're lucky the roll bar didn't kill them when it collapsed. Lesson to be learned here.

 

[jmauld]

I have personally seen them provide real protection in a roll-over. The shell of the car folded around the upper bars. But I will repeat they weren't designed to provide this type of protection that this guy needed. That doesn't mean they don't provide some protection. I don't doubt that a cage or even a 4pt welded to the frame would've completely protected the passengers, but making a blanket statement that they provide no protection is short-sighted.

Accidents happen, and you can't completely protect against everything. A cage will do nothing to stop a sharp object from coming through the windshield.

 

[Gray Ghost GT]

I stand by my statement - bolt ins are not worth the money and effort to install them - Period!! I actually tracked a road course car that initially had a bolt-in roll bar before going with a weld-in roll cage, and I've seen "bolt ins" mostly fail in roll over situations over the past 5 years, so I think I know what I'm talking about. Ok, they may provide "some" protection <to avoid the blanket statement>, but you have to ask yourself, "Is my life worth the extra $200 to have a weld-in system installed over a bolt-in?" I bet that guy wished he had a "real" roll bar/cage installed. It comes down to how much risk you're willing to assume in this hobby.

 

[SoundGuyDave]

Just say ouch... I've got the Autopower 4-point rollbar in mine, and over the winter, I WILL be reinforcing the mount points. I'm thinking of welding in a larger floor plate, which would tie into a plate welded to the vertical face of the rear seat pedastal, and to another plate welded to the rocker panel, all three tied together, and then drop the bar on that. I need to be able to return the car as closely to stock as possible if necessary, so I can't just weld the bar in...

 

[pacettr]

Thanks for the post. I have done business with Will through the dealership in the past. Glad everyone walked away.


I have been at a track event with one of their cars; they DRIVE them...

 

[SoundGuyDave]

Oh, just another data point: The bar in his car was NOT the Autopower road-race bolt in, there was no visible harness bar OR diagonal, but pix from the car were at the wrong angle to see the backstay braces, so I can't comment on those. I could see that there ARE some, but that's about it.

 

[STEVE_POE]

first, glad they are ok. would love to see that from a on board camera.Be safe not stupid. contact me if you want a qualiy built cage.

 

[SoundGuyDave]

Steve build GORGEOUS cages, take him up on the offer... I will.

 

[Gray Ghost GT]

I understand many want to track (road course) their daily driver but don't want to install a full roll cage, etc. I was in the same situation two years ago - and there is some middle ground for a good solution.

One solution is - have a dedicated track car with all the safety features like me and Steve Poe have, but that can sometimes be an expensive venture.

The other solution is - have a 4 or 6 point weld in roll bar installed in your car (6 point with removable door bars, but preferably fixed). Peace of mind. Welding to the frame gives the car more rigidity and much improved protection you'll need when the shit hits the fan.

Some want to be able to get their car back to stock form for whatever reason, but that's part of the "how much risk are you willing to accept" question.

This are pictures of my roll cage installation:

 

[STEVE_POE]

Actually I wish I could take credit for it but the guy at www.modulardepot.com did it . guy is a artist and takes pride in his work. I watched him spend like 20 minutes shaping a bar with a grinder on something that looked perfect before he started grinding. smethings should be left to guy that know what they are doing.

If anyone is interested I gurantee you will be pleased with the work they do.

 

[jmauld]

Some want to be able to get their car back to stock form for whatever reason, but that's part of the "how much risk are you willing to accept" question.

Ding, Ding.

While I agree completely with you that the weld-in option is far superior to the bolt-in option, there are cases (like the one you just pointed out) where I would still suggest a bolt-in. While it isn't nearly as good as the next level up, it is better than relying completely on the factory rollover protection.

Personally, I'm going with the dedicated track car and a weld-in option, but I can still relate to those who don't have two cars.

IMO, the car in the picture should've had a better bar/cage installed. There's no reason for a car like that to not have it.

 

[Gray Ghost GT]

According to the driver that was on the track with this guy when the incident occurred, he was taking that turn too fast - something that surprises me since he had a passenger in the car.

Whenever I take a passenger I dial it back some to add a little safety margin to the equation. I'm sure most instructors would agree. However, some drivers do just the opposite and want to show-off.

I hope that wasn't the case in this situation. 625 hp in a car that barely weights 3000 lbs requires a great deal of respect while pushing it towards its limits. Again, it sucks, but very glad everyone walked away safe.

I once participated in a Ferrari event where an instructor took out a friends Lamborghini with a passenger (soldier recovering in Walter Reed Hospital) and made a pass taking a turn too fast and buried the car into the tire wall. Fortunately, they were both ok, but I think the car owner had a heart attack.

 

[SoundGuyDave]

According to the driver that was on the track with this guy when the incident occurred, he was taking that turn too fast - something that surprises me since he had a passenger in the car.

Whenever I take a passenger I dial it back some to add a little safety margin to the equation. I'm sure most instructors would agree.

YES! This instructor would agree! I've had an "off" with a student in the car, but it was from being distracted discussing the racing line, and turning-in a touch too late. Lesson learned. Generally speaking, when you have somebody in the right seat, that automatically means a 20% reduction, at least in my mind.

However, some drivers do just the opposite and want to show-off.

I hope that wasn't the case in this situation. 625 hp in a car that barely weights 3000 lbs requires a great deal of respect while pushing it towards its limits. Again, it sucks, but very glad everyone walked away safe.

I would hope not, too. Another thing to consider, is that if the car really did weigh less than 3000lbs, that thing was gutted. From the way the roof came in, it wouldn't surprise me if he cut all the support steel out, betting on the bar supporting the roof in the event of an issue. Bad bet, if that was the case. The S197 chassis from the factory is already pretty massively overbuilt, and I've seen highway rollovers that barely kinked the A-pillars, and did nothing to the B-pillars. Granted, they may not have had nearly the violence of impact as the pitch-pole at Hallet, but still, I would have expected the basic structure to hold up better than that, unless it was gutted for weight savings.

 

[RedMosesSC]

To be fair I don't believe those bars are intended to provide that knd of protection. Cars just aren't designed to be dropped on their tops.

I think my statement was taken literally, i meant "Did Nothing" as in, "Holy sh*t, i was considering a 4 point bolt in but it doesn't look like it did much".

The 4 point roll bar was better than, nothing. But on that token, a decorative light bar is better than, nothing. See the attached pics of the cobra. We dont how it landed and we also dont know how THIS car landed, we are all making assumptions BUT i m just shocked at the effectiveness of THAT bolt in 4 point.

** I just noticed that the car from the link is the 2010 Procharger show car, that thing WAS sweet.

 

[dkegel]

I understand many want to track (road course) their daily driver but don't want to install a full roll cage, etc. I was in the same situation two years ago - and there is some middle ground for a good solution.

One solution is - have a dedicated track car with all the safety features like me and Steve Poe have, but that can sometimes be an expensive venture.

The other solution is - have a 4 or 6 point weld in roll bar installed in your car (6 point with removable door bars, but preferably fixed). Peace of mind. Welding to the frame gives the car more rigidity and much improved protection you'll need when the shit hits the fan.

Unfortunately, driving a car on the street with a rollcage can also be dangerous. If you get rear-ended and smack your head against a roll cage, you are going to do a lot of damage to your skull. Having the cage padded helps, but I'm not sure if that's enough.

There is the harness bar/racing harness option, but using that on the track is not ideal because if you land on your roof, the harness keeps you bolt upright while the roof caves in on your head.

Everything other than a dedicated track car is a compromise

Dave

 

[DusterRT]

Just say ouch... I've got the Autopower 4-point rollbar in mine, and over the winter, I WILL be reinforcing the mount points. I'm thinking of welding in a larger floor plate, which would tie into a plate welded to the vertical face of the rear seat pedastal, and to another plate welded to the rocker panel, all three tied together, and then drop the bar on that. I need to be able to return the car as closely to stock as possible if necessary, so I can't just weld the bar in...

Dave, how do the Autopower mounting points compare to the new(ish) Maximum Motorsports bars that are out? They look very well thought out for a bolt-in bar.

http://www.maximummotorsports.com/content/install/pdf/rollbars/Mm5RB-20-1_20-6.pdf

As far as returning the car to stock...you could weld in reinforcement plates and bolt the bar in over those. Remove the bar, replace the carpet and trunk liner...no one's gonna see it.

"Is my life worth the extra $200 to have a weld-in system installed over a bolt-in?"

How valid that point is depends on where you're at and how well connected you are. I've been bar shopping at a few places around here; the reputable shops are starting at $1600 (plus another 9.4% or whatever to the state) and I have to deliver it with the interior stripped, then there's the back seat delete issue. At least in my case, it's more like $2000 by the time it's all said and done vs. $700 (or less); a considerable difference.

It's painfully obvious that guy had the worst possible bar in about the worst possible sort of greasy side up incident; practically like taking a hammer to a Hotwheels car. But using this as an argument to totally rule out bolt-in bars is a bit excessive IMO.I'm still thinking about it, but the MM bar looks to be a legitimate piece for entry-level rollover protection. Ideal? Absolutely not..but way better than nothing.