CAR Fx track car pancaked at Hallett

[SoundGuyDave]

Funny you should mention the MM piece... Another S197 open-tracker and I were discussing that in light of the Hallet crash, and, playing "devil's advocate," came up with two fairly important issues with that bar.

1) mounting location may be too far rearward for many drivers to set up the seat properly and still have any real protection. With the Autopower bar, I have nearly 10" of clearance between my helmet and the plane of the hoop, and that bar is set almost 3" further forward than the MM hoop location. Forget about the "gansta lean" seating position: you need to be able to go flat to the floor with your feet, and drape each wrist across the top of the wheel without pulling your shoulder off the seat. Unless you're 6'4" or better, your seat will NOT be all the way back. With mine, I have barely enough room to slide my thigh between the wheel and the seat side bolster, and I'm a 5'11" bean pole.
2) There is NO diagonal brace on that hoop design. This is a deal-breaker for the road-race sanctioning bodies. NASA (and IIRC SCCA) require that any safety equipment that is installed in a non-competition (HPDE or TT) car must meet the specs laid out in the relevant section of the competition CCR. That means positioning, design, materials, installation, etc. ALL road-race tech bibles that I've seen require a diagonal brace, but oddly NHRA calls them "illegal," for some reason that is beyond my imagination. If you look at the design of the optional (swing-out!!) door bar, the MM bar is being sold as a drag "cage," and not for road-racing.

In terms of crash protection, let's look at the main, common types of "very abrupt stops."
Nose-in: the harness bar in the main hoop locks the driver into the seat through the harness straps.
Tail-in: the harness bar in the main hoop is the mounting point for the seatback brace, which prevents the seat from folding.
side-impact: The diagonal siffens the rectangular shape of the main hoop, preventing any shifting that would allow the body structure to roll into the driver's area.
rollover, from side: Same as above, but the overall hoop and diagonal act as a pair of triangles (four if your harness bar is integrated), to keep the hoop's shape in the event of a rolling finish, as in "you tried to save it, and went off sideways."
Top impact: Like the Hallet crash, the diagonal would serve to keep the hoop shape rigid, and if it was properly boxed to the frame, probably wouldn't have punched downwards through the floor.

With the crash in question, I'm not overly optimistic that ANYTHING short of a full, triangulated cage would have kept the roof structure up, especially if it was gutted like I suspect it was.

 

[Gray Ghost GT]

I agree. Everything other than a dedicated track car is a compromise and driving a street car with a full roll cage isn't a good idea. It really comes down to whether you want a bolt-in or a weld-in roll bar (4 point or more). While the price difference between the two options is neglible, the weld-in model will require a little more prep work to complete the job. When you're sitting upside down against hard armco (blue guard rails in the video) or a tire wall, its a bad time to say, "Hmmm, shoulda coulda woulda.." Don't mean to scare anyone away from this great hobby, just need to think of the potential risks of road course vs. drag racing - totally different dynamics. Mike

 

[DusterRT]

Funny you should mention the MM piece...
2) There is NO diagonal brace on that hoop design.

A diagonal is optional but special order, so #2 is covered; I was not aware of #1 and is certainly food for thought.

And I'll just give this question a bumpity bump..looking for where they mount in the car, how, etc.

Dave, how do the Autopower mounting points compare to the new(ish) Maximum Motorsports bars that are out?

While the price difference between the two options is neglible

Maybe for you, but you can't make a blanket statement there either..unless $1300 is negligible to you, and at that point I'll just call you an arrogant bastard, which I mean in the most endearing way possible.

At least in my case, it's more like $2000 by the time it's all said and done vs. $700 (or less); a considerable difference.

Also worth noting that all three of the race fab shops I had quote me for a bar suggested a bolt-in bar. Apparently not even they feel the extra cost is necessary at the DE level.

 

[Gray Ghost GT]

Maybe for you, but you can't make a blanket statement there either..unless $1300 is negligible to you, and at that point I'll just call you an arrogant bastard, which I mean in the most endearing way possible.

Also worth noting that all three of the race fab shops I had quote me for a bar suggested a bolt-in bar. Apparently not even they feel the extra cost is necessary at the DE level.

Heck, I would never say $1300 is a negligible difference in cost. I wish I had enough money to say something like that. I'm only talking about my own experience when I had a shop install a custom 4-point roll bar in my '93 Celica GT and compared that to the price of a 4-point bolt-in roll bar online that they could have installed - only a few hundred dollar difference. Perhaps that was a unique case. $1300 difference for bolt-in vs. weld-in installed = WOW!

I would also place the comments of the fab shop you talked to in perspective. If they aren't building roll cages for race cars, but are a fab shop that can build roll bars for street cars, then you can see where they might make statement like that. The fab shop I use, which builds roll bars and cages for race cars, would be the first to tell you that a bolt-in for DE use at *any* level is inadequate, but ultimately the customers decision. The car, track and armco doesn't care if you're a beginner DE driver or professional race car driver when its going 120+ mph off the track into armco.

 

[DusterRT]

What's this "Armco" stuff you keep talking about crashing in to? We prefer to use trees and dirt walls here in the Pacific Northwet.

(not me, no camcorder yet..)

 

[DusterRT]

According to this article, it was an Autopower 4-point bar..

http://www.mustang50magazine.com/fe...r_fx_web_exclusive/2008_car_fx_number_12.html

 

[SD07GT]

According to this article, it was an Autopower 4-point bar..

http://www.mustang50magazine.com/fe...r_fx_web_exclusive/2008_car_fx_number_12.html

Makes you want to run out there and pick one up ....doesnt it

 

[DusterRT]

Slow day at work today.

Maximum Motorsports (left) vs. Autopower (right).

And for reference, here's an example of a welded in bar (well this is actually part of a full cage).

 

[gbrown]

We just installed one of the Maximum Motor sports roll bars and I was VERY impressed with their mounting bracket. If you don't want to install a permanent welded in roll bar I would highly recommend that bar because they tie their mounting point into a lot of structure.

If you are going to have a roll bar or cage welded in be very careful who you use to install it. I have seen many welded cages that had no more mounting surface than that Autopower. If you are mounting your cage to single layer (thin) floorboard your welded cage will be no more effective than what you see here. Welding in that Autopower bar would not have made a damn bit of difference.

If you are doing a complete cage and are worried about the main hoop being too far behind you there are ways to compensate for that. You have to look at the whole picture and not just where one piece is mounted. If you move the main hoop forward and just mount it to just the floor I would argure that it is more dangerous than having the bar on the rear seat bulkhead.

Just my opinion.

 

[fhlh]

Better pics of the action at Jalopnik

http://jalopnik.com/5390934/mustang-cover-boy-tries-to-corner-flips-over-tire-wall?skyline=true&s=i

Note Pic #8... what's that poking thru the floor pan

 

[Gray Ghost GT]

Note Pic #8... what's that poking thru the floor pan

Hmmm.. its either a Formula 1 style hydraulic lift system that activated at the wrong time, or its the bolt-in roll bar floor mounts driven through the floorboard upon impact (not attached to the frame)...

 

[94tbird]

tons of pics of the car actually flipping here

http://jalopnik.com/5390934/mustang-cover-boy-tries-to-corner-flips-over-tire-wall

 

[07ROUSHSTG3]

that car started life as a roush trac pak. second time that it has been in a wreck.

http://www.fnsweet.com/forums/general-bsn/51612-jerrys-trak-pak-wreaked-again.html

 

[pacettr]

Didn't realize that was Jerry's old car...

 

[SoundGuyDave]

Jerry's old car, rebuilt by Jerry's Kids...

 

[DusterRT]

Figured I'd throw up some pics of my MM bar...put them in another thread but thought they might be good here too.

Mounting pad is a nice piece of work. I was kinda sad to paint it!

MIG welds look pretty good..

The rear down bars should be welded, and are coped nicely. An acquaintance of mine who welded it up for me decided to show off and TIG it, making the rest of the welds look like crap.

Fit is good and tight. Hard to see, but it fits right up against the headliner. Not sure if I'm going to put the interior back in, still on the fence about it.

 

[Gray Ghost GT]

Is that a "modified" MM roll bar where you added the two rear down bars or does it come that way from MM to achieve a four point roll bar mount? Looks like a nice weld job for a secure installation. I definitely like the main hoop mounting hardware better than the AutoPower bars - huge difference. The MM mounting points look like something you would get from most custom roll bar / roll cage builders - nice!

 

[DusterRT]

Is that a "modified" MM roll bar where you added the two rear down bars or does it come that way from MM to achieve a four point roll bar mount?

That's how it comes from MM. There are a couple little things I would have done differently had I made it myself but it would make it much more difficult to manufacture, so I can't complain about how they did it.

The fit was great, but I will say you should have it welded *before* drilling in to the wheel wells for the mounting pads. It distorted ever so slightly and made it more difficult to get lined up and back in (but I was also working by myself, a second set of hands would have probably made it a heck of a lot easier). In hindsight, I really should have seen that one coming!