data log cam angle help

[fzr confused]

i installed some CMS stage 1 cams (no limiters/lockouts) a few weeks back. shortly i had the front cam cap bolts back out, not sure why or how. anyway, that caused my pass cam to go over retarded and would kill the pass side of the engine. anyway, i got that fixed but before i figured it out i talked to bama the tech said "o, well this could be causing it" and he did a tweak to my tune. well, it didnt help since the bolts were backed out. i have done a few data logs with all the cam angle options selected and well, i have no idea what it SHOULD look like. anyone on here able to look them over and see if everything looks good? or maybe tell me min/max that i should be seeing? on the data logs with the problems the "cam angle cam 0" was min -2.49 and max 61.98 while cam angle cam 1 had a min of -1.62 and a max of 53.26. they stayed pretty close until you would rev it, and then the pass side would go way up to say 61.81 and the drivers side was at -1.31. the data logs after i bolted everything down again stay withing 1-2 of each other which i assume is good. the pass side has a min of -1.86 and a max of 46.61 and the drivers side min is -1.15 and a max of 46.64. they stay very close to each other the entire time.

does the numbers look right? i ask because when it was having the issue i could hear the VCT going whacko, and with the windows up and the radio off yesterday and today, i can MAYBE hear a similar sound, could also be me being paranoid.....what are the min and max supposed to be? why are my max numbers now in the 40's while before it was in the 50's (the good side)? the tune before they tweaked it seemed to have more power, but could also be a placebo....

 

[BruceH]

The vct tables depend upon load and rpm. It's quite possible that the only cells you hit during your data log were 40 or so max.

i installed some CMS stage 1 cams (no limiters/lockouts) a few weeks back. shortly i had the front cam cap bolts back out, not sure why or how. anyway, that caused my pass cam to go over retarded and would kill the pass side of the engine. anyway, i got that fixed but before i figured it out i talked to bama the tech said "o, well this could be causing it" and he did a tweak to my tune. well, it didnt help since the bolts were backed out. i have done a few data logs with all the cam angle options selected and well, i have no idea what it SHOULD look like. anyone on here able to look them over and see if everything looks good? or maybe tell me min/max that i should be seeing? on the data logs with the problems the "cam angle cam 0" was min -2.49 and max 61.98 while cam angle cam 1 had a min of -1.62 and a max of 53.26. they stayed pretty close until you would rev it, and then the pass side would go way up to say 61.81 and the drivers side was at -1.31. the data logs after i bolted everything down again stay withing 1-2 of each other which i assume is good. the pass side has a min of -1.86 and a max of 46.61 and the drivers side min is -1.15 and a max of 46.64. they stay very close to each other the entire time.

does the numbers look right? i ask because when it was having the issue i could hear the VCT going whacko, and with the windows up and the radio off yesterday and today, i can MAYBE hear a similar sound, could also be me being paranoid.....what are the min and max supposed to be? why are my max numbers now in the 40's while before it was in the 50's (the good side)? the tune before they tweaked it seemed to have more power, but could also be a placebo....

 

[fzr confused]

makes sense, when doing more data logs (they sent me another tune tonight, still having p0133/p0153 CEL problems) what PIDs should i pick to get a full picture? i did rpm, all the cam options, throttle position absolute and speed.

 

[fzr confused]

Anyone have a screen shot of what the datalog should look like?

 

[702GT]

I was told to use "actual cam angle" when monitoring/datalogging. I have limiters in my phasers and I've never seen higher than 19's (more like 16-17's normal high, 19's spike) but share similar lows (-1.6's) but I know it should just be "0".

 

[fdjizm]

This is what my datalog looks like I am using act cam angle... the tune is set to fords recommendations for the hot rod cams retard values which is 20 at WOT, but you'll see 19.xxxxx most of the time.

 

[BruceH]

This was with 10 degrees commanded. I selected all the pids that had to do with cam position.



This was 5 degrees.



And 0 degrees.

 

[fzr confused]

hmmm, thanks for posting the pics! maybe my car is running like it should haha. still looking to get a dyno tune and get rid of this crap tune....

 

[fzr confused]

ok, so under WOT, i should see somewhere around 20? 1 log i have when i go WOT, it hits 35 right away, stays in the 30s for a few seconds and then lowers all the way to 0....??? of course for whatever reason this group of data logs i somehow missed the rpm PID.

i do not have hot rods, but i have similar spec cms stage 1 cams. they are a little more lsa and a little more on the intake side. so i would assume (yea, i know what happens when you do that), that the cam commands would be at least somewhat similar?

 

[fdjizm]

I'd say get a dyno tune, you have custom cams not off the shelf known stuff like hot rods, 127xxx's, rockers, thumpr's etc...
Those cams aren't very widely used in these cars and you knew that before you bought them lol.

 

[fzr confused]

I'm waiting for dyno time . Hopefully he has some time in july.

 

[BruceH]

You should see whatever your tuner is commanding. If those are the cams with a 116 intake center line then 0 would probably be the best airflow for wot at higher rpms. IIRC Hot Rods have an icl of 102. That would mean that your cams have the icl shifted the same as Hot Rods with 14 degrees of retard. It's not an apples to apples comparison though, your cams need their own values imo.

ok, so under WOT, i should see somewhere around 20? 1 log i have when i go WOT, it hits 35 right away, stays in the 30s for a few seconds and then lowers all the way to 0....??? of course for whatever reason this group of data logs i somehow missed the rpm PID.

i do not have hot rods, but i have similar spec cms stage 1 cams. they are a little more lsa and a little more on the intake side. so i would assume (yea, i know what happens when you do that), that the cam commands would be at least somewhat similar?

 

[fzr confused]

On my cam cards I don't see an icl listed, would it be the degree intake lobe?

 

[BruceH]

Yes it would.

 

[fzr confused]

Ok, so I found a cam card for their supercharger grind and it's icl is 116 and the n/a grind like I have is 106. I will do more data logs tonight if its not raining. Thanks for the help so far everyone

 

[702GT]

ok, so under WOT, i should see somewhere around 20? 1 log i have when i go WOT, it hits 35 right away, stays in the 30s for a few seconds and then lowers all the way to 0....??? of course for whatever reason this group of data logs i somehow missed the rpm PID.

i do not have hot rods, but i have similar spec cms stage 1 cams. they are a little more lsa and a little more on the intake side. so i would assume (yea, i know what happens when you do that), that the cam commands would be at least somewhat similar?

It's not so much the rpm as the load and infered torque that will determine what the tune tells the VCT to do. At WOT the stock VCT table should ask for 0 cam angle down low and as she runs out it should ask for minor increases in cam angle. With a custom cam a tuner should be utilizing that cam card to figure when and where VCT should retard the cams (if at all) and feel it out on the dyno. There's more math than I care for when cam angle calculating comes into play.

Edit: Also somewhere in the archives I remember someone talking about VCT and said you can only retard cam angle so much before you're getting nothing out of it. Wasn't big numbers either, something like 14 or 16 degrees max. I know when we refer to VCT there's 60 degrees overall of possible cam retard (both cam phasers are capable of 30 degrees). When it comes to PID's though I'm not sure if the labeled "Actual Cam Angle" refer's to the overall relative to crank or the true angle of each cam. Meaning if that PID says it's at a value of 20.00 degrees is it saying each cam is angled 20 degrees for what should be interpreted as 40 degrees total (both cams) or does it mean each cam is 10 degrees retard for a total of 20 degrees relative to crank?

Personally in any of my datalogs of "actual cam angle" I've never seen more than 16-18.00 degrees displayed under any condition. But I also have comp limiters.

 

[BruceH]

It can be set up to work off of the Torque or Load VCT Tables. Here is an example of the IMRC open load and rpm controlled vct commanded values on a stock car.

I use max airflow to determine the best wot vct retard at specific rpms. It's not as good as dyno numbers but it's all I have available and it's better than guessing or following what someone else said.

I've been able to come up with some generalizations on what is going to work with the valve timing events. It's dependent on icl and durations.

It's not so much the rpm as the load and infered torque that will determine what the tune tells the VCT to do. At WOT the stock VCT table should ask for 0 cam angle down low and as she runs out it should ask for minor increases in cam angle. With a custom cam a tuner should be utilizing that cam card to figure when and where VCT should retard the cams (if at all) and feel it out on the dyno. There's more math than I care for when cam angle calculating comes into play.

Edit: Also somewhere in the archives I remember someone talking about VCT and said you can only retard cam angle so much before you're getting nothing out of it. Wasn't big numbers either, something like 14 or 16 degrees max. I know when we refer to VCT there's 60 degrees overall of possible cam retard (both cam phasers are capable of 30 degrees). When it comes to PID's though I'm not sure if the labeled "Actual Cam Angle" refer's to the overall relative to crank or the true angle of each cam. Meaning if that PID says it's at a value of 20.00 degrees is it saying each cam is angled 20 degrees for what should be interpreted as 40 degrees total (both cams) or does it mean each cam is 10 degrees retard for a total of 20 degrees relative to crank?

Personally in any of my datalogs of "actual cam angle" I've never seen more than 16-18.00 degrees displayed under any condition. But I also have comp limiters.

 

[702GT]

It can be set up to work off of the Torque or Load VCT Tables. Here is an example of the IMRC open load and rpm controlled vct commanded values on a stock car.

I use max airflow to determine the best wot vct retard at specific rpms. It's not as good as dyno numbers but it's all I have available and it's better than guessing or following what someone else said.

I've been able to come up with some generalizations on what is going to work with the valve timing events. It's dependent on icl and durations.

So Bruce, how does the car respond to these value tables in a boosted application then? Since the value of load is based on a max of 1.00 load representing an N/A condition, how does it know what value to use when a 1.00+ load is given? My car for example uses that stock value table. At 1.00 Load at 4500rpm I should see 2.5 degrees cam angle. But I'm above 1.00 load under boost and at 4500rpm my shit goes full tilt 17 degrees cam angle. Does the computer know to continue to use the 1.00 load values above 1.00 load?

 

[fzr confused]

as expected this is starting to get over my head lol. i will just continue a few more data logs and have them reviewed. then get my dyno tune hopefully in july.

 

[BruceH]

It's possible to change the axis so that higher load values can be accounted for. AFAIK (or at least this is how I've done it) the stock axis is kept since wot will encompass the 1.0 load and above. The computer will use the 1.0 tables for loads above that value.

This is just the stock table. With limiters the max cell value should be 20. You also have to remember that the stock cams are ground with a very advanced icl to take advantage of the vct. This means that most aftermarket cams aren't going to use the full range of vct available.

Your tuner should always ask what cams are installed and ask for the cam cards if they aren't familiar with the cams. The icl affects more than just the vct tables. It also affects fuel injector timing. This is why some people only see a mild loss in mpg with certain cams and some see huge losses with unburnt hydrocarbon smells coming from the exhaust. The tuner needs to be able to plot valve timing events and adjust accordingly.

So Bruce, how does the car respond to these value tables in a boosted application then? Since the value of load is based on a max of 1.00 load representing an N/A condition, how does it know what value to use when a 1.00+ load is given? My car for example uses that stock value table. At 1.00 Load at 4500rpm I should see 2.5 degrees cam angle. But I'm above 1.00 load under boost and at 4500rpm my shit goes full tilt 17 degrees cam angle. Does the computer know to continue to use the 1.00 load values above 1.00 load?