First Auto-X event! My experience and some advice I would like

[Renesis07]

I posted about my first track day last month, which was by far the most fun I've ever had with any car I've owned. So that inspired me to look into some local events and I attended my first auto-X event yesterday (SCCA Solo)

So with that being said, please keep in mind I'm still 'green' with all this. Still learning the 'classes' of auto-x, learning about suspension, and most importantly working on my driver mod.

Yesterday I got placed in the 'Rear Drive Street Tire' class. I went there as an 'unknown' and that's where they placed me. So if this is wrong, feel free to let me know so I can be in the correct class next time.

Throughout the day I significantly improved my times, however I know there's a lot more to be had. My first run was 70 seconds, which is absolutely horrid. I had a DNF on that run anyways because I missed a cone, but at least that run got the 'first time running' nerves calmed down. I literally improved almost every run. My times on the next 5 runs were 65, 62, 60, 62, 60, then finished the day with my best run of 59.902 which was my goal (to break 60 seconds). Now, even though I was happy I was able to improve myself over 10 seconds in only 6 runs, my numbers were still far from where they should be. Seemed like the medium time in the class was right around 55 seconds (top of class were pulling off 53 second runs). So I was still around 5 seconds from even being competitive.

Something that came to light yesterday is that my car, when pushed to the limits, has horrid understeer. So bad to the point where I was having to apply throttle to essentially 'drift' myself straight again. The understeer was to the point where I would turn the wheel and the car would go straight and essentially 'hop' until I applied more throttle and compensated the understeer with an induced oversteer. On the easier corners and slalom cones my car felt balanced and easy to control but when the hairpin corners came about my car just didn't make the cut.

As I said earlier, I am new to the auto-x scene and really handling setups all together. I would really like to maximize what I currently have before dumping money into other modifications. I feel like I have more skills to learn and more in my current setup to utilize before determining what to do next. That's my thoughts at least, if I'm dead wrong feel free to correct me.

Here are my current suspension modifications:

Steeda Ultra Lite Springs
Koni Sports
Saleen Sway Bars
Steeda Tower Bars (Front & Rear)
BMR Adjustable Panhard Bar

When I installed the Konis, I essentially just set them to a softer setting that was even all around. Like I said, I don't know too much about suspension adjustments and wanted to see how the car performed before messing with it. Well now that I know I have understeer issues, I think it's time to start utilizing the konis. What do you guys think for correcting the issue?

Sorry if my post is really 'noobish', just looking for advice from the veterans on here and wanted to share my first auto-x experience. Thanks guys! Can't wait to get out there again, definitely addicted.

Oh, and of course a mandatory picture

 

[cbass]

Are your sways bars adjustable? Make the front looser, or tighten the back up. Do not do more than one thing at a time, or else you won't be able to track down what did or didn't work.

Also, tire pressures are voodoo. I used to chalk my tires every run to see how far up the shoulder I scrub. I do it once in a while now, but not as adamantly as I used to.

 

[Renesis07]

Are your sways bars adjustable? Make the front looser, or tighten the back up. Do not do more than one thing at a time, or else you won't be able to track down what did or didn't work.

Also, tire pressures are voodoo. I used to chalk my tires every run to see how far up the shoulder I scrub. I do it once in a while now, but not as adamantly as I used to.

The sway bars are not adjustable. To be completely honest, I bought them without too much knowledge about them. They were inexpensive and thicker than the OEM sway bars, so I went for it. In retrospect, I should've done more homework however I assumed at the time that a thicker bar would help performance. It's funny, first thing I thought of was "I wonder if my sway bars are too stiff".

In regards to tire pressure, I had them set at 30psi prior to arriving. What do you recommend I run them at?

 

[claudermilk]

Like cbass said, pressure are voodoo. Get some chalk & chalk the tires--draw some lines from the tread onto the sidewall a bit in a few places around the tire. Then check after a run to see how far you rolled the tire over. My goal is to use up the tread, but not roll onto the sidewall. I'm still getting the hang of autocrossing the S197 chassis myself & having to unlearn the FWD settings I am used to. I was running 32psi on the OEM Pirellis and that seemed to work ok.

 

[Renesis07]

Like cbass said, pressure are voodoo. Get some chalk & chalk the tires--draw some lines from the tread onto the sidewall a bit in a few places around the tire. Then check after a run to see how far you rolled the tire over. My goal is to use up the tread, but not roll onto the sidewall. I'm still getting the hang of autocrossing the S197 chassis myself & having to unlearn the FWD settings I am used to. I was running 32psi on the OEM Pirellis and that seemed to work ok.

Hmm, never heard of chalking the tires, but that does make sense! I will definitely try that next time I'm out. What is the goal? To not roll over the tire?

 

[Renesis07]

So my next event, I will be chalking the tires and checking tire pressures and adjusting between runs (something I didn't do last time).

Now, since the one component on my car that's adjustable is the konis, what settings do you guys run or think would help with my car?

 

[modernbeat]

Hmm, never heard of chalking the tires, but that does make sense! I will definitely try that next time I'm out. What is the goal? To not roll over the tire?

The goal is to use the entire tread of the tire, but not to roll over on the sidewall.

I don't have a good photo ready, but you mark the corner of the tire, from a couple inches into the tread to down the sidewall. After a run, examine the mark. It should be worn off the tread and down to some small triangles at the edge of the sidewall that point to the boundary of the tread and sidewall. If you haven't gotten down to the triangles yet, you should bleed off some air. If the mark is worn off beyond the triangle and into the sidewall, add more air. This will change as you run. During the event the tire will warm up and the air pressure will rise. Many competitors will pump up their tires to their target pressure, or close to it, for their first run. After the tire warms up they will bleed off pressure until they hit their target pressure.

To figure out your target pressure, you use the chalk trick. Or after you get more experience and start using softer tires, you can read the tires by looking at the wear and graining.

 

[dontlifttoshift]

What other mods on the car?...and what tire sizes. If not STX then "R" on the ESP index would be the right class.

Push on entry into the corner? That's you're fault, not the car. Slow in, fast out.

The turn around at the end of the course, how did the car get in and out of there?

If you want to lossen up the back end, adding rebound to the rear shocks will do that.

We were in the dark blue '12 5.0 running STX. Come to the 2 day event in October, say Hi and I'll help you however I can.

Donny

 

[Renesis07]

What other mods on the car?...and what tire sizes. If not STX then "R" on the ESP index would be the right class.

Push on entry into the corner? That's you're fault, not the car. Slow in, fast out.

The turn around at the end of the course, how did the car get in and out of there?

If you want to lossen up the back end, adding rebound to the rear shocks will do that.

We were in the dark blue '12 5.0 running STX. Come to the 2 day event in October, say Hi and I'll help you however I can.

Donny

Donny, thanks for the advice. I learned that quickly in the beginning, I came out going all out and ran the 65 second run, then started slowing down entry speeds and shaved off 5 seconds of time just being patient. It just seemed that I couldn't get a good line going and I was just slopping all over the place. The nose of the car just didn't want to turn. Next time, I'll start off a slower and work my way from there to work on entry/exit speeds.

The turnaround is where the understeer I was describing was really noticeable. As soon as I apexed at the cone the car would just skid straight while the wheel was turned and I would throttle it to push the car thru the corner.

Like I said, I know I'm missing a lot of potential in my car, and most of this is probably driver error, which is expected my first time out.

I was wondering if any of the Mustangs were s197 members, I remember your car very well, as it sounded very nice and we were commenting on it when you were running. Since we run different classes, maybe next time if you're up for it, I can have you ride with me to give me some feedback, I'm open for suggestions and want to get better.

Tires size: 275/40 (R) 255/45 (F)

Here's a full mod list:

Engine/Exhaust

Bama 93 Tune
JLT Intake
Steeda Underdrive Pulleys
Magnaflow Axlebacks
JBA Longtube Headers
JBA Catless H-pipe
Steeda Charge Motion Delete Plates


Drivetrain

MGW Short Shifter (Gen 2)

Wheels/Tires

Bremmer Kraft BR-05 19x8/9
Hankook v12 Tires

Suspension

Steeda Ultra Lites
Koni Sports
Saleen Sway Bars
Steeda Tower Bars (Front & Rear)
BMR Adjustable Panhard Bar


Interior
Corbeau LG-1 Seats
Rear Seat Delete

Misc. Weight Reduction

D680 Battery
Spare Tire/Jack Removed


Another question, for the twin event. Do we have to compete both days to participate? I work Saturdays and can't get the day off. If I can just run on Sunday, I would love to go to it. Wasn't sure if that was possible, I was planning on looking into it more but since you brought it up, figured I'd ask you.

 

[Renesis07]

The goal is to use the entire tread of the tire, but not to roll over on the sidewall.

I don't have a good photo ready, but you mark the corner of the tire, from a couple inches into the tread to down the sidewall. After a run, examine the mark. It should be worn off the tread and down to some small triangles at the edge of the sidewall that point to the boundary of the tread and sidewall. If you haven't gotten down to the triangles yet, you should bleed off some air. If the mark is worn off beyond the triangle and into the sidewall, add more air. This will change as you run. During the event the tire will warm up and the air pressure will rise. Many competitors will pump up their tires to their target pressure, or close to it, for their first run. After the tire warms up they will bleed off pressure until they hit their target pressure.

To figure out your target pressure, you use the chalk trick. Or after you get more experience and start using softer tires, you can read the tires by looking at the wear and graining.

Thanks! Will have to try that next time.

 

[cbass]

for reference, I tried my 285/40R18 Goodyear F1's at 38 pounds all around, I am settling at about 33 rear 36 front. But these tires suck. My first year in RWD, so I got tires that have a lower price tag, and lower limit, so I can learn on them instead of masking my bad habits and blowing money when I step over where I should have put the car.

The best place to spend money is practice. Go to a novice school (our scca region has a phenomenal school) and run in novice as long as they let you, take as many instructor ride alongs as you can. The biggest advice both myself and my father give while instructing is maximizing the amount of time on power and on braking. No coasting, and the only time you shouldn't be hard on power is when you are mid corner.
Your tires have finite grip, so while the wheel is turned, it limits how much you can use the tires for accel/decel. Learn pedal control, and turning becomes easier.

 

[Renesis07]

for reference, I tried my 285/40R18 Goodyear F1's at 38 pounds all around, I am settling at about 33 rear 36 front. But these tires suck. My first year in RWD, so I got tires that have a lower price tag, and lower limit, so I can learn on them instead of masking my bad habits and blowing money when I step over where I should have put the car.

The best place to spend money is practice. Go to a novice school (our scca region has a phenomenal school) and run in novice as long as they let you, take as many instructor ride alongs as you can. The biggest advice both myself and my father give while instructing is maximizing the amount of time on power and on braking. No coasting, and the only time you shouldn't be hard on power is when you are mid corner.
Your tires have finite grip, so while the wheel is turned, it limits how much you can use the tires for accel/decel. Learn pedal control, and turning becomes easier.

That makes a lot of sense. I definitely think I can improve times just by learning pedal control a little more. I know I improved yesterday significantly throughout the day, but reflecting back today on what I was doing yesterday, I can see where I was braking too late, or giving too much throttle.

I definitely felt an understeer, I'll probably make adjustments as I go, and focus more on just getting a more controlled line thru the course. It's awesome that I know Donny is an s197 member, so next event, I can have him keep an eye on me and give me some feedback. Not going to lie, it felt really good to see a 10 second improvement throughout the day, so my goal is to continue on improving my skills and hopefully get to more competitive times in the future.

 

[cbass]

DEFINITELY favor an instructor familiar with a similar car. Even a 4th gen fbody is reasonably comparable to our cars, especially if the other choices are all FWD drivers.

How big are the events? My cousin moved to Champlain a couple of years back, and I know he did some events after he moved. (but now he has a wife and kid, so I have no idea if he still goes to events)

 

[Renesis07]

DEFINITELY favor an instructor familiar with a similar car. Even a 4th gen fbody is reasonably comparable to our cars, especially if the other choices are all FWD drivers.

How big are the events? My cousin moved to Champlain a couple of years back, and I know he did some events after he moved. (but now he has a wife and kid, so I have no idea if he still goes to events)

This last one had 155 participants.

 

[dontlifttoshift]

The turnaround is where the understeer I was describing was really noticeable. As soon as I apexed at the cone the car would just skid straight while the wheel was turned and I would throttle it to push the car thru the corner.

Tires size: 275/40 (R) 255/45 (F)


Bremmer Kraft BR-05 19x8/9
Hankook v12 Tires

I think I found your push. More air pressure in the back tires will loosen the car up as well, that may be the best play here.

I was wondering if any of the Mustangs were s197 members, I remember your car very well, as it sounded very nice and we were commenting on it when you were running. Since we run different classes, maybe next time if you're up for it, I can have you ride with me to give me some feedback, I'm open for suggestions and want to get better.

I'm not much of a coach, but like I said I will help however I can. You can ride with us, too. My wife is the better shoe, ride with her.

Not sure with those mods....with no cats, you really aren't legal for esp I don't think. I would keep running in R....nobody will care until you start winning.

Another question, for the twin event. Do we have to compete both days to participate? I work Saturdays and can't get the day off. If I can just run on Sunday, I would love to go to it. Wasn't sure if that was possible, I was planning on looking into it more but since you brought it up, figured I'd ask you.

Yep, you can run just Sunday.....or tell your boss

 

[Justin_H]

Not all street tires are created equal, figure you'd be 2 seconds faster on Hankook RS3s. No need to buy them yet, although your staggered setup is contributing to your understeer.
More negative camber, a bigger rear bar, and more tire pressure can all reduce understeer.
So can reduced entry speed, reduced steering angle, and reduced throttle.
A more experienced driver in your car can give you feedback about how much is car vs driver.

 

[phoenix335]

Follow the chalk advice on the tire pressure. I have a similar suspension setup except ebiach adjustable bars and Vorshlag CC plates. I run 38 ish PSI on the stock ZEros when I run them and the Konis I run 1.5 turns (from full soft) up front and 1.25 out back. Is you still push to much turn the front down by 1/4 turn increments.

The biggest thing you have to do is follow your own advice and be 'patient'. Also when you have understeer you need to unwind the wheel. It is counterintitutive but turning the wheel more it the direction you want to go makes things worse.

 

[Renesis07]

Follow the chalk advice on the tire pressure. I have a similar suspension setup except ebiach adjustable bars and Vorshlag CC plates. I run 38 ish PSI on the stock ZEros when I run them and the Konis I run 1.5 turns (from full soft) up front and 1.25 out back. Is you still push to much turn the front down by 1/4 turn increments.

The biggest thing you have to do is follow your own advice and be 'patient'. Also when you have understeer you need to unwind the wheel. It is counterintitutive but turning the wheel more it the direction you want to go makes things worse.

That is great advice, thank you! I will keep that in mind next time. Also, thank you for the koni suggestion, I will give that setup a try and adjust from there if necessary.

 

[frank s]

You may or may not be able to use the feedback from relatively small changes in rebound rate, which is what the "turns" on an adjustable Sport Koni change.

At my first autocross after installing the Sports, I made three runs at "street" trim, all the way soft, all the way around, as a base line. Fourth run I cranked the rears all the way hard. Remarkable difference, much more controlled feeling, less initial understeer in those wicked too-fast approaches. Fifth run was confirmation. Sixth run, fronts all the way hard. I liked the feeling, but it was back to dramatic understeer. Backed the fronts off halfway for the Seventh run, found it easing back from the drama, but the Fourth and Fifth conditions was still best (fronts full soft, rears full hard). Anything less than a half-turn, in subsequent trials, I couldn't sense any difference.

Some time later I changed the rear stabilizer bar for the H&R 26mm item. Same kind of routine as far as trim changes showed me the sway bar increase brought the car to pretty much neutral in most circumstances, and it seemed to me the shock adjustments were less effective with the larger bar. But I could be wrong. I don't drive autocross as much as I'd like to, and there is a tendency to lose sensitivity between practices.

All this is on an otherwise stock '13 5.0 on stock wheels and tires: 255-40x19 Pirelli originals, 30 PSI all around. The wear limit on the tire corners is not quite reaching the wear-bar markers on the tread/sidewall transition area.

Just for some kind of not-necessarily-useful data points, the "Track Apps" G-guage shows a maximum of 1.08 turning right and 1.04 turning left. Braking is in the low .90s and acceleration is embarrassing. I have no idea whether or not this "meter" has any significance. but there it is.

 

[claudermilk]

I'll echo cbass' suggestion for training. Go to any novice school you can get to. Also keep an eye out for your local club possibly hosting an Evolution school.

Back when I first started autocrossing my Probe GT, I was fortunate in that they ran a novice school and my instructor happened to be one of the top MX-6 drivers. That was so helpful that soon the local GS class boiled down to whether I or an MX-6 driver were having a better day; the local V6 Camaro got frustrated at perpetual 3rd & stopped showing. >

I was finally able to make it to an Evolution school this spring, and that was money well spent. I learned a ton both in the general driver mod and getting more familiar with the S197 chassis. I want to do this school again when it comes around.

For now, I'd almost leave your shocks full soft & learn to deal with the chassis as it is. I think messing with anything beyond tire pressures will just confuse things.