JDM 302E Engine Owners - Check In!!

[AutoXRacer]

You get too much back pressure with mufflers and it wont work.

What do you run?

I'm being told by some top local engine builders to just have some custom baffled catch cans made. I am just discovering we have local machine shops that build one off race parts for some high end race teams... Hmmm...

Maybe I can have then build me a catch can that actually works!!!

 

[BruceH]

What do you run?

I'm being told by some top local engine builders to just have some custom baffled catch cans made. I am just discovering we have local machine shops that build one off race parts for some high end race teams... Hmmm...

Maybe I can have then build me a catch can that actually works!!!

I think catch cans do work. It's going to be hard to get all of the oil out of the crankcase air but it's possible to get most of it imo.

There are many people on this site who run a pcv system successfully. You can run two in series too. I've done that and noticed that the second can catches some too. In the end there is a point where you have to let go and call it good.

 

[eighty6gt]

I run one JLT catch can and there's never anything more than a tiny bit of oil in it. I think the oil leaves/evaporates as fast as it accumulates.

Opinion (which I've come to watching endless builds on the internet, and from my 5.0 days, and from the little bit I've done to my 4.6 ie: an M90): I've found the closer you can stay to factory specifications/setup the less unknown variables come into play and the more reliable your end product.

I don't think a 600-700 hp car needs to slant too far into "race setup" territory with the PCV system. Run it pretty much stock. If you have crankcase pressure/vacuum issues you are going too nuts with your rings and cylinder clearance.

I guess it's selection bias at work here but it's kind of discouraging watching many peoples stuff seemingly go awry. Hopefully Geralds car holds up!

I just wandered over here. Haven't been on any forums since roushforums.com just vanished before Christmas!

 

[VectorPat]

What do you run?

I'm being told by some top local engine builders to just have some custom baffled catch cans made. I am just discovering we have local machine shops that build one off race parts for some high end race teams... Hmmm...

Maybe I can have then build me a catch can that actually works!!!

I'm personally running a JLT style, it does catch oil but the last time I had my blower off there was oil in the belly of the intake. Check with One eyed willy, he tried the exhaust bung and it didnt work because if the back pressure.

 

[Fabman]

Does it work on a street car?
Why do we not hear about this on late model cars like ours?

Would it work with catalytic converters?

Would have to be AFTER the cats......cats don't like oil.
I don't know why people aren't doing it....maybe there's good reason but I don't know. What I do know is that I was installing those for guys back in the early 80's so it's definitely nothing new.

You get too much back pressure with mufflers and it wont work.

That's not exactly true...it depends on the mufflers.
I'm an old stock car guy so we have been running mufflers on race cars since the 70's and we ran this same setup with no issues. Now if you have super restrictive mufflers....maybe. But with today's straight through mufflers there will be no problem. You just have to poke it in the point with the most velocity, like the collector of long tube headers. If you have shorty headers and cats that might be a different story. You would have to experiment a little.

 

[AutoXRacer]

Well... The mystery is finally over.

I just did a leak down-test on the motor. Something that I paid a shop to do earlier last year. sigh
Like always, you want something done right, you got to do it yourself.

Anyway, here are the results:

Cylinder 1 - 90 psi = 10%
Cylinder 2 - 97 psi = 3%
Cylinder 3 - 82 psi = +15%
Cylinder 4 - 86 psi = 14%
Cylinder 5 - 98 psi = 2%
Cylinder 6 - 82 psi = +15%
Cylinder 7 - 90 psi = 10%
Cylinder 8 - 96 psi = 4%
(The source pressure was 100 psi.)

Obviously this is pretty bad. But how does a motor in this condition still make +600rwhp!!?? Shouldn't it be down on power?

Just to make sure, this is how I performed the test:
-Set source pressure to 100 psi.
-Set the cam lobes to 11 and 1 0'clock.
-Held the breaker bar to keep the crank for spinning for dear life!!!
-Connected the spark plug supply hose to the leak-down tester, verified 100 psi source settled, and maintained for 7 seconds or so (until reading settled and maintained).

Wow...what a frustrating year!!!
I bought new heads for nothing...although, these heads are better and will provide a little more power. lol

I'll use my current heads to rebuild the stock motor that crapped out for another project car:

So I am guessing this was all due to the worst break-in in history...?

 

[BruceH]

So you don't think the valves are leaking?

 

[skwerl]

Sounds like JDM owes you a short block rebuild. Best of luck with it, since you did use their rich break in tune and hounded them for months trying to get your final tune.

 

[Vinnie5.0]

When you do the lark test on the cylinders with higher leak numbers where is the air escaping to? Can u feel it coming out of the exhaust or the intake manifold? If the rings aren't sealed or the cylinder walls are washed u will be able to feel the air coming out of the oil filler neck with the cap removed. If you can pinpoint where the air is going u will have a better idea of what's going on.

 

[VectorPat]

That's not exactly true...it depends on the mufflers.
I'm an old stock car guy so we have been running mufflers on race cars since the 70's and we ran this same setup with no issues. Now if you have super restrictive mufflers....maybe. But with today's straight through mufflers there will be no problem. You just have to poke it in the point with the most velocity, like the collector of long tube headers. If you have shorty headers and cats that might be a different story. You would have to experiment a little.

This is very true. I would love to see someone make it work as it seems to be the perfect solution. Its simple and wouldnt have the smell inside the car of running an open system.

 

[AutoXRacer]

So you don't think the valves are leaking?

I haven't torn into the heads yet. But I am thinking its unlikely.
With this much leakage, it is possible the oil was coming passed the rings.

I'm not taking the heads out of the equation just yet, but seeing Ford's rack record with these heads, unless it was an assembly defect, I am now doubting its the heads.

 

[AutoXRacer]

Torn the motor apart this weekend:
http://www.s197forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=103705&page=14

Post #269

The cylinder walls looked polished. The cross hatch is very difficult to see, compared to my stock 64K mile motor.

Also found a chunk of metal in the oil pickup tube screen.

Let me know what yall think!!

 

[JimIII@JDM]

Sounds like JDM owes you a short block rebuild. Best of luck with it, since you did use their rich break in tune and hounded them for months trying to get your final tune.

He was working with another tuner from the beginning. He didn't run our tune that long at all. Recently he discovered his current tune was over fueled and switched to a different set of injectors. I don't see where our tune has anything to do with his issues. Gerald made all his own decisions when it came to tuning or parts suggested for this build. He did not take my recommendations from the beginning by using 60 lb injectors, he wanted the bigger 80's instead. Over fueling washes the cylinder walls down and will not allow the rings to properly seat leading to all the issues he has had.

 

[BadPiggy]

I believe I'd be working with another tuner too when my builder that was supposed to supply a tune takes 4 months to get me one.

And that's pretty much per Gerald. He constantly complained about not getting a tune for the longest time on fnsweet.com forum.

Jim, I think JDM is a great shop with kickass cars coming out of it, but you need to own this one. You dropped the ball on getting tunes or revisions to him in a timely manner.

I agree with you on the injector size issue. He should've listened.

 

[JimIII@JDM]

I believe I'd be working with another tuner too when my builder that was supposed to supply a tune takes 4 months to get me one.

And that's pretty much per Gerald. He constantly complained about not getting a tune for the longest time on fnsweet.com forum.

Jim, I think JDM is a great shop with kickass cars coming out of it, but you need to own this one. You dropped the ball on getting tunes or revisions to him in a timely manner.

I agree with you on the injector size issue. He should've listened.

This wait period was all while Gerald was building the car, it wasn't running or ready for a Tune. After much communication and him finalizing the car we built him a tune with in a few weeks and started working on it with him. He chose to go with another tuner while still in the process of having us help him. We offered our services, and still do if he needs anything. I told him to send the engine to us and we would help the best we could but he is going else where. If the motor were in our hands believe me it is something we would work with. We did not drop the ball. Gerald has made his own decissions during this whole process.

 

[tigerhonaker]

This wait period was all while Gerald was building the car, it wasn't running or ready for a Tune. After much communication and him finalizing the car we built him a tune with in a few weeks and started working on it with him. He chose to go with another tuner while still in the process of having us help him. We offered our services, and still do if he needs anything. I told him to send the engine to us and we would help the best we could but he is going else where. If the motor were in our hands believe me it is something we would work with. We did not drop the ball. Gerald has made his own decisions during this whole process.

Appreciate your response here on S-197.

Terry

 

[Gray Ghost GT]

JDM built me a great 302E motor as its been a year now of regular daily driving - no road course time - with no issues. The only problem I had initially was obtaining a tune that could pass OBD-II state emissions inspection (NJ is the same as MD) and it was pulling timing during the dyno run - not good; especially if I was to have it on the road courses. I gave Jim two opportunities to get the tune right after failing state emissions twice; having the CEL and codes pop up; traveling back to his shop at my expense. I finally had Ed Hutchings (Hi-Tech Tuning) - the same guy that's been tuning my modified Corvette C5 for many years - take it. I picked the car up.. no codes.. no CEL and passed the emissions test. Ed also resolved the tuning issues that was causing it to pull timing, which improved my horsepower/torque numbers. Good tune = peace of mind.

 

[skwerl]

Gerald, I told you there would be no warranty. Warranty is a promise used as a sales tool to get you to spend money. The seller loses money on any warranty claims so there is always a reason or excuse why this or that isn't covered. You had JDM build this motor and deliver it to you completely assembled so you could preserve warranty, but you still didn't get any coverage when it failed.

Notice Jim never mentioned the chunk of metal in the oil pickup tube...

Lots of excuses about how he 'worked' with you on the tune, but I was reading the daily posts on fnsweet to the contrary. Unfortunately that thread got lost in the format revision. I told you then that you didn't have any warranty and would never see anything else from JDM regardless of what happened with the motor.

 

[BadPiggy]

Notice Jim never mentioned the chunk of metal in the oil pickup tube...

Nor anything about the broken o-ring under the hydraulic chain tensioner.
The only way that could break is improper installation.

 

[weather man]

Gerald, I told you there would be no warranty. Warranty is a promise used as a sales tool to get you to spend money. The seller loses money on any warranty claims so there is always a reason or excuse why this or that isn't covered. You had JDM build this motor and deliver it to you completely assembled so you could preserve warranty, but you still didn't get any coverage when it failed.

Notice Jim never mentioned the chunk of metal in the oil pickup tube...

Lots of excuses about how he 'worked' with you on the tune, but I was reading the daily posts on fnsweet to the contrary. Unfortunately that thread got lost in the format revision. I told you then that you didn't have any warranty and would never see anything else from JDM regardless of what happened with the motor.

Your comments are not fair to JDM. They have offered multiple times to look at the motor. The OP has ignored most of JDM's suggestions in this thread. Your calling them out on warranty when they do not have the motor to examine. The OP was also running a tune from other than them. How can you really expect JDM to warranty hardware running someone elses tune? Tunes make or break motors. Do you really expect them to pay some other shop to take the motor apart and say whatever? I think JDM is being pretty damn generous to try and work something out if he gets the engine to them.