JDM 302E Engine Owners - Check In!!

[AutoXRacer]

I would assume that the valve seals would not be Jdm s fault as if they only changed the springs

And cams...

So what does this mean? That the whole head is defective? Or only the seals?

How do new seals end up leaking?


BTW, can anyone recommend a borescope...?

 

[BruceH]

And cams...

So what does this mean? That the whole head is defective? Or only the seals?

How do new seals end up leaking?


BTW, can anyone recommend a borescope...?

Haven't used it but Harbor Freight has a few varieties for cheap. There is a HF on Evergreen Ave in Everett right across from the Ford dealer.

 

[AutoXRacer]

Haven't used it but Harbor Freight has a few varieties for cheap. There is a HF on Evergreen Ave in Everett right across from the Ford dealer.

You think the HF one is worth even trying it? For $199 I can get a snap on. lol

 

[BruceH]

You think the HF one is worth even trying it? For $199 I can get a snap on. lol

I wouldn't be afraid of it. They will take it back if it doesn't work.

 

[AutoXRacer]

I wouldn't be afraid of it. They will take it back if it doesn't work.

I found a hopefully better one recommended by JDM.

ACDelco ARZ6058
http://www.acdelco-tools.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=63_61&product_id=147

 

[AutoXRacer]

Hmm, all these threads to keep track of... for the latest on the JDM 302E motor fiasco, see this thread: http://www.s197forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=103481&page=11

I have identified my issue as being the heads...

 

[GB10]

Any pics of the heads, or are you waiting until Christmas to disassemble it? The seats/seals are one piece, so hopefully they installed them since the seat pocket could be damaged by the valve springs without the steel seat. They also center the base of the valve spring and the installed height would be greater without the seats which means lower seat and open spring pressures.

 

[AutoXRacer]

Any pics of the heads, or are you waiting until Christmas to disassemble it? The seats/seals are one piece, so hopefully they installed them since the seat pocket could be damaged by the valve springs without the steel seat. They also center the base of the valve spring and the installed height would be greater without the seats which means lower seat and open spring pressures.

No, the motor is still intact and being used to commute back and forth to work. I will start tearing down the valve covers closer to Christmas. I plan to R&R the seals first...depending what I find.

Not sure what to look for in terms of additional issues. I was told to inspect the guides. But how do I do that other than trying to wiggle the valves?

If they don't wiggle we are good?

I am hoping they forgot to install the seals as that would be a simple fix.
I just don't understand how all the cylinders are leaking oil. All 24 seals can't be bad...what are the odds?

 

[JimIII@JDM]

We have been in contact with Gerald, he emails me all the time and we have correspondence back and forth. The valve guides and or seals are what is in question after his latest pictures sent to us. Until the heads are apart and inspected its all suspicion. We are going to work with him on replacing the heads or seals. If Gerald wants to upgrade to 3V ported heads I told him I would work on a price to credit his used heads for what I can. We would perform the labor and replace the faulty parts if he sends the heads or entire engine back to us. The heads are complete Ford Racing 3V non ported heads. Ford Motor Company assembled the guides, valves, and seals. We replaced the springs and cams before assembly I doubt there was any issue caused by our engine shop. We are still willing to stand behind our work.

Just because we haven't responded to this thread doesn't mean we haven't been in discussion with Gerald. It is not exactly like he can just drop by our shop and have us look at the car and fix it for him. He is doing a lot of this himself when he has the time available. Please do not jump to conclusion or castrate us for lack of being active in his threads. I appreciate all your comments and concerns, anyone who has questions about this or our engines can contact me direct at [email protected]

JimIII

 

[BadPiggy]

Why are you pulling the heads?
Why not use (I forget what it's called) the tool that you hook an air compressor to and fill the cylinder with air?
It keeps pressure on the valves so they stay closed/raised.

 

[JimIII@JDM]

No, the motor is still intact and being used to commute back and forth to work. I will start tearing down the valve covers closer to Christmas. I plan to R&R the seals first...depending what I find.

Not sure what to look for in terms of additional issues. I was told to inspect the guides. But how do I do that other than trying to wiggle the valves?

If they don't wiggle we are good?

I am hoping they forgot to install the seals as that would be a simple fix.
I just don't understand how all the cylinders are leaking oil. All 24 seals can't be bad...what are the odds?

If there was no seals in the heads you would be having much more consumption than what your seeing now

 

[JimIII@JDM]

Why are you pulling the heads?
Why not use (I forget what it's called) the tool that you hook an air compressor to and fill the cylinder with air?
It keeps pressure on the valves so they stay closed/raised.

I suggested removing the heads so the guides can also be inspected.

 

[BadPiggy]

I suggested removing the heads so the guides can also be inspected.

Ok, gotcha.
Understand why head removal is necessary now.

 

[AutoXRacer]

I suggested removing the heads so the guides can also be inspected.

How do you inspect the guides? What is the procedure?

Would a giggle test suffice? Or is there more to it?

 

[JimIII@JDM]

How do you inspect the guides? What is the procedure?

Would a giggle test suffice? Or is there more to it?

you would see movement in the guides if there was a problem there. They are pressed into the head so they should be extremely tight. The guides could also be cracked, thats very unlikely but the other reason why they would leak. You need to pull the valves out of the heads to make sure.

JimIII

 

[GB10]

No, the motor is still intact and being used to commute back and forth to work. I will start tearing down the valve covers closer to Christmas. I plan to R&R the seals first...depending what I find.

Not sure what to look for in terms of additional issues. I was told to inspect the guides. But how do I do that other than trying to wiggle the valves?

If they don't wiggle we are good?

I am hoping they forgot to install the seals as that would be a simple fix.
I just don't understand how all the cylinders are leaking oil. All 24 seals can't be bad...what are the odds?

The guides look like the stock powdered metal ones. Unless they have a brass liner installed where the valve stem rides I wouldn't think they would have excess clearance since those are made to a certain spec with a slim tolerance range allowed by ford, but who knows. Is it stock valves?

A machine shop would be best to measure valve guide to stem clearance if you don't have the tools. You would need a small hole gauge set, or a single small hole gauge with a range of .2" .3" and a micrometer or a caliper. If you want to do it yourself let me know and I can tell you how.

 

[AutoXRacer]

We have been in contact with Gerald, he emails me all the time and we have correspondence back and forth. The valve guides and or seals are what is in question after his latest pictures sent to us. Until the heads are apart and inspected its all suspicion. We are going to work with him on replacing the heads or seals. If Gerald wants to upgrade to 3V ported heads I told him I would work on a price to credit his used heads for what I can. We would perform the labor and replace the faulty parts if he sends the heads or entire engine back to us. The heads are complete Ford Racing 3V non ported heads. Ford Motor Company assembled the guides, valves, and seals. We replaced the springs and cams before assembly I doubt there was any issue caused by our engine shop. We are still willing to stand behind our work.

Just because we haven't responded to this thread doesn't mean we haven't been in discussion with Gerald. It is not exactly like he can just drop by our shop and have us look at the car and fix it for him. He is doing a lot of this himself when he has the time available. Please do not jump to conclusion or castrate us for lack of being active in his threads. I appreciate all your comments and concerns, anyone who has questions about this or our engines can contact me direct at [email protected]

JimIII

I'm not knocking JDM at all... Jim has been great with keeping in touch.
I think what has made this whole journey/build so frustrating is the distance.

But I do have a concern... When the motor was built, were the heads inspected? Were the valves and guides clearanced? I know these heads are OEM and we would typically over look inspecting OEM parts. But since the heads were torn down anyway to upgrade the springs, I would have imagined guides and valves would have been inspected. Especially on a high performance motor like this.

Just asking.

What puzzles me the greatest is that all the valves are leaking. The odds of 24 bad seals is just hard to swallow.

I will pull the valve covers and inspect the heads. I will remove one spring and take a quick look at the seals and perform a quick wiggle test and go from there.

If the heads need to come off, then I am pondering CNCed heads.
Would it be worth the trouble? What kind of gains are we looking at?
Will tuning be required?

More to come...

 

[AutoXRacer]

The guides look like the stock powdered metal ones. Unless they have a brass liner installed where the valve stem rides I wouldn't think they would have excess clearance since those are made to a certain spec with a slim tolerance range allowed by ford, but who knows. Is it stock valves?

A machine shop would be best to measure valve guide to stem clearance if you don't have the tools. You would need a small hole gauge set, or a single small hole gauge with a range of .2" .3" and a micrometer or a caliper. If you want to do it yourself let me know and I can tell you how.

If the heads need to come off, I may just ship them to JDM so they have transplant my parts to CNC heads...if its worth the trouble.
If not, then I would just have them redone locally.

 

[JimIII@JDM]

I'm not knocking JDM at all... Jim has been great with keeping in touch.
I think what has made this whole journey/build so frustrating is the distance.

But I do have a concern... When the motor was built, were the heads inspected? Were the valves and guides clearanced? I know these heads are OEM and we would typically over look inspecting OEM parts. But since the heads were torn down anyway to upgrade the springs, I would have imagined guides and valves would have been inspected. Especially on a high performance motor like this.

Just asking.

What puzzles me the greatest is that all the valves are leaking. The odds of 48 bad seals is just hard to swallow.

I will pull the valve covers and inspect the heads. I will remove one spring and take a quick look at the seals and perform a quick wiggle test and go from there.

If the heads need to come off, then I am pondering CNCed heads.
Would it be worth the trouble? What kind of gains are we looking at?
Will tuning be required?

More to come...

The heads were inspected at our shop, had we seen any issues at the time or concerns we would have addressed them. The guides and seals were not installed by JDM, this was done by Ford....not livernois either. When installing springs and cams your not tearing down the heads completely. If you wanted a valve job or CNC work then yes the heads get stripped down to bare castings. I don't think the oil is passing by the seals, something tells me its coming through the guides.

I noticed in the pictures you posted of the cylinders that the tops of the pistons looked brand new. They are so clean because there is too much fuel going into your cylinders. Compression and leak down looked good but I think the rings may be letting oil past if the cylinders are really that washed down. Oil is being sucked past the rings and valves back into the intake chamber. Then the oil seeps down past the guides when the motor is shut off and sits overnight or for a period of time.

Get the motor out, get the heads off. Get a visual inspection of everything, then move from there. We are all just kicking the can around until its apart then we'll know for sure.

JimIII

 

[BadPiggy]

The odds of 48 bad seals

8 cylinders x 3 valves per...24 seals

Unless you're counting the seats as being a seal, which in theory it is.