Learning to make fast go fast!

[BruceH]

So I have the iron block like the 03/04 cobra in my car. I was too cheap to get the aluminum block. Is the block I have weaker or is it just a weight thing?

Going off of memory here. It comes from a magazine story I read prior to building my first motor.

The story read that the Terminator used the iron block because an engineer felt it was stronger than the 1L (Mach 1) aluminum block available at the time. They had a 1L block come apart around 1000hp during some extreme testing. The cause of the block failure had to do with something else going wrong but the engineer felt the iron block would of held together regardless.

I know that the stock Terminator motors are one of the strongest complete motors Ford has ever produced. That's mostly due to the Kellogg crank, h-beam rods and Mahle pistons. The blocks aren't know for failure at a certain power level like the Coyote blocks are. People push the stock Terminator motors pretty hard and they stick together.

It's held up so far right? IIRC it's been about 6 years, that's a pretty solid testament to it's strength.

 

[RocketcarX]

Yes,,where ya been,

I don't mess with the Coyote motor outside of reading about the craze for them, once I learned of the 3v blocks strength I was set in knowing I would be happy with it. I just assumed with the Coyote tit that gets suckled so often they were the shit.
Typically I build American pushrod based engines when it comes to max performance.
I did my first 4v head swap in a 98 mustang GT for a customer recently...all the more reason I like the 3v SOHC engine over the mass and complication of DOHC and VVT.
I am Coyote dumb and never liked the size and weight of the old 4v motor, hence my decision to stay with legacy style Ford small blocks and big block up until deciding to build my 2008 Mustang into a racecar.

On a side note, I have a buddy with a 2013 GT, he's had to warranty replace the engine for "egg shaped" cylinders. He was spraying a 150 shot at the track, I couldn't believe Ford covered it. Seems like the thing should have stood more abuse, or at least for a longer period of time. It failed during normal use when it went.

 

[Department Of Boost]

Lol. I couldn't bring myself to say that.

I really do wish I understood more about what makes an ideal quench. A friend of mine once bought a used Ford nascar motor. He tore it down for a rebuild prior to doing anything else with it, measuring all the specs as he went.

He found something real interesting, the pistons were all out of the hole at tdc. He called the original builder and asked about it. All the builder would say is that my friend figured out something that wasn't readily known. Wouldn't tell him why or the theory behind it and that was the end of the conversation.

The original builder was being kind of a dick. That's nothing new or secret.

I used to build my Ducati motors with the piston way up out of the hole. This allowed me to make them a true "zero quench" at TDC taking head gasket thickness into account. That meant that your combustion chamber was only the "dish" and area around the valves. So very small and compact. It also was a lot closer to hemispherical then it would have otherwise been. Very efficent. This is race motor stuff. On tear-downs you could see faint witness marks where the piston crown was contacting the heads when the piston rocked in the bore. Well, at least keeping any carbon from building up. There were also 15.5:1 motors that revved to the moon (with bigger pistons than the Mod motors have by quite a bit). So "race " stuff. You wouldn't want to cut it so close on a "real" motor.

 

[Department Of Boost]

I don't know anything about a Hemi, so I don't get it...

A hemispherical combustion chamber is theoretically the most efficient you can get. I can't find a good diagram but basically you have a cylinder head with one half of a sphere and a piston with the other half of the sphere (dish). It creates a combustion chamber shaped like a perfect hemisphere/"ball".

When you light off the spark the flame travel is even in all directions.

They're hard to pull off though and get reasonable compression ratios. What you find most of the time is s dome shape head with a slightly dished piston. They look more like if you dropped a hemisphere and the bottom side flattened out a bit.

 

[05stroker]

A hemispherical combustion chamber is theoretically the most efficient you can get. I can't find a good diagram but basically you have a cylinder head with one half of a sphere and a piston with the other half of the sphere (dish). It creates a combustion chamber shaped like a perfect hemisphere/"ball".

When you light off the spark the flame travel is even in all directions.

They're hard to pull off though and get reasonable compression ratios. What you find most of the time is s dome shape head with a slightly dished piston. They look more like if you dropped a hemisphere and the bottom side flattened out a bit.

I see now.

So, what you are saying is, I have the worst thing you can have. Lol

A flat combustion chamber and a flattop pistion. Seems like a setup like mine would be more proun to detonation with the charge being forced to the outer edges. Actually our combustion chambers slope towards the exhaust valve.

 

[Department Of Boost]

I see now.

So, what you are saying is, I have the worst thing you can have. Lol

A flat combustion chamber and a flattop pistion. Seems like a setup like mine would be more proun to detonation with the charge being forced to the outer edges. Actually our combustion chambers slope towards the exhaust valve.

Yeah, the 3v combustion chamber is a long way from ideal. At least it doesn't have domed pistons. That's even worse!!!!!

 

[05stroker]

Yeah, the 3v combustion chamber is a long way from ideal. At least it doesn't have domed pistons. That's even worse!!!!!

So, in thery, some dish should be helpful then.

 

[Department Of Boost]

So, in thery, some dish should be helpful then.

Yes. As long as it doesn't drop your compression too much.

 

[05stroker]

Yes. As long as it doesn't drop your compression too much.

A 6cc dish would put me right around 10.5:1 CR.

 

[Marble]

Going off of memory here. It comes from a magazine story I read prior to building my first motor.

The story read that the Terminator used the iron block because an engineer felt it was stronger than the 1L (Mach 1) aluminum block available at the time. They had a 1L block come apart around 1000hp during some extreme testing. The cause of the block failure had to do with something else going wrong but the engineer felt the iron block would of held together regardless.

I know that the stock Terminator motors are one of the strongest complete motors Ford has ever produced. That's mostly due to the Kellogg crank, h-beam rods and Mahle pistons. The blocks aren't know for failure at a certain power level like the Coyote blocks are. People push the stock Terminator motors pretty hard and they stick together.

It's held up so far right? IIRC it's been about 6 years, that's a pretty solid testament to it's strength.

That's correct. Still runs like new, minus my chronic belt issues.

I've been enjoying this thread as I have learned a lot. I am happy I got a stock stroke, stock bore motor built with super strong stuff in a beefy block.

Seeing 05stroker go through his issues is a learning experience for all of us. The lesson I'm taking away from this and combining it with Sactowns success at the track is a big single turbo is simple, has no belt issues and can make huge power.

If the stars align this winter, I'll be ripping the KB out and doing my own semi custom single turbo.

I want to make fast car go fast.

 

[weather man]

Hey, stopped by DB Performance today to check on my stuff. For kicks I asked Danny (shop owner) if he had time to look at your pics.

First words out of his mouth were "Whoa, that cylinder was under severe detonation, spark plug tip burned off completely" He also said it could have easily failed the rod. I asked him why no pitting and he said it doesn't always show there first. He would carefully inspect the exhaust side edge of the piston for pebbling.

He also noted that oil had been getting into the cylinder for a while. He surmised that oil in the cylinder was what induced the detonation. He did say he would flow all the injectors, just to be safe.

Most likely cause he thought was a bad valve seal. Least likely was a crack that started at the base of the cylinder and propagated up. When the crack got higher, it would have supplied the oil.

I asked him about your pulley support, He said if a pulley support is causing issues, you would see it first in the closest main bearing and it would then work toward the back of the motor. If the front mains spec out, likely not causing problems.

Anyway, thought you might find his input useful.

 

[TexasBlownV8]

That's correct. Still runs like new, minus my chronic belt issues.

I've been enjoying this thread as I have learned a lot. I am happy I got a stock stroke, stock bore motor built with super strong stuff in a beefy block.

Seeing 05stroker go through his issues is a learning experience for all of us. The lesson I'm taking away from this and combining it with Sactowns success at the track is a big single turbo is simple, has no belt issues and can make huge power.

If the stars align this winter, I'll be ripping the KB out and doing my own semi custom single turbo.

I want to make fast car go fast.

That'a boy! Join the former-KB-now-turbo crowd

 

[sportinawoody]

How much did you put down Texas? Never seen it posted. I

 

[Marble]

I will be...wife wants the back yard done, as do I, and a few other things but It'll be in the works.

 

[TexasBlownV8]

(we're side-tracking Billy's thread here, boys....sorry Billy )

How much did you put down Texas? Never seen it posted. I

the 2.6l with the smallest pulley, pushing a little over 18psi on 93 octane through a 4r70, dyno'd just under 600; Lito would have tweaked the tune to push it a few more, just to get over 600, but we decided not to bother.

The turbo torque is far more insane, at a lower boost level, too. However, the torque is not instantaneous as on the KB; that I miss, a little.

 

[05stroker]

Hey, stopped by DB Performance today to check on my stuff. For kicks I asked Danny (shop owner) if he had time to look at your pics.

First words out of his mouth were "Whoa, that cylinder was under severe detonation, spark plug tip burned off completely" He also said it could have easily failed the rod. I asked him why no pitting and he said it doesn't always show there first. He would carefully inspect the exhaust side edge of the piston for pebbling.

He also noted that oil had been getting into the cylinder for a while. He surmised that oil in the cylinder was what induced the detonation. He did say he would flow all the injectors, just to be safe.

Most likely cause he thought was a bad valve seal. Least likely was a crack that started at the base of the cylinder and propagated up. When the crack got higher, it would have supplied the oil.

I asked him about your pulley support, He said if a pulley support is causing issues, you would see it first in the closest main bearing and it would then work toward the back of the motor. If the front mains spec out, likely not causing problems.

Anyway, thought you might find his input useful.

Thanks for asking. I feel like it was just way to much cylinder pressure and detonation was introduced with the 3.4 pulley bringing the boost on so fast . We have to remember I was testing 12:1 C/R with 24 psi from a F1a with a very tiny pulley that maxes out the blower at 6300 rpm. The intake and exhaust runners in the heads are clean and free of oil. I don't think a valve seal was bad as there was never any smoke during start up or any other time till the the motor went. I'm not comfortable yet with my diagnosis, but I am moving on.

I have a stock stroke Kellogg crank and a 3v block along with some Manley I beam rods for the stock stroke coming. The plan for now is to get some pistons in the 9.8:1 CR range coming and build it all up with a 3.9 pulley back on the Procharger and run 7500 rpm again.

After that I will install a 3.7 pulley and see what happens.

I still plan to build a 323" BB stroker this winter and run it with the 3.4 pulley limited to 6200 rpm.

 

[sportinawoody]

I have a brand new 3.7 double keyed procharger pulley if you need it

 

[05stroker]

I have a brand new 3.7 double keyed procharger pulley if you need it

12 rib?

 

[05stroker]

Seems I was well into the red, thoughts?

So, how much octane is required for 31.6 :1 ECR?

http://www.treadstoneperformance.co...-in-relation-to-static-compression-and-boost/

 

[05stroker]

By that chart, my 12:1 C/R with 24 psi = 10.5:1 with 30 psi., Does that sound right?