one eyed willy
Pizzle fo shizzle
Least they lasted 14 months.......
mahle livernois pistons
- Thread starter one eyed willy
- Start date
Least they lasted 14 months.......
Ouch!
Diamond, CP, JE.
bigstick
forum member
damn, I was just reading this thread a few days ago while researching my own build.
I guess we both got an answer...
I guess we both got an answer...
SiriusB0neR
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Diamond makes me feel all special knowing they were built for my build
one eyed willy
Pizzle fo shizzle
Anyone have the specs for these?
dsw-b-3517c , it is what's stamped on the top of my livernois 4032 piston
dsw-b-3517c , it is what's stamped on the top of my livernois 4032 piston
19COBRA93
Ford Racing
Least they lasted 14 months.......
I've got Mahle's, Diamonds, Manley's, and CP's that all look like that. That failure has zero to do with the piston, and 100% to do with the tune/setup.
one eyed willy
Pizzle fo shizzle
Ok.....
I happened to be datalogging at the time, a/f was right on and no signs of detonation. I'm not sure what caused it, this was the only piston with a issue. I think the tune or set up would effect more than a signal piston....
In my other thread, I showed how my crank sensor wheel key way slot was all messed up. Probably from not having the balancer tight or it came loose.
The motor was also used when I got it, supposedly it had been freshly rebuilt but using 1000 mile pistons.
It's been drinking oil for the last 14 months, so i also believe there was a issue with the original seating of the rings?
No way of knowing at this point, but ill be testing it all when I get to that point!
At this point I'm trying to just gather info for replacement pistons and rings!
I happened to be datalogging at the time, a/f was right on and no signs of detonation. I'm not sure what caused it, this was the only piston with a issue. I think the tune or set up would effect more than a signal piston....
In my other thread, I showed how my crank sensor wheel key way slot was all messed up. Probably from not having the balancer tight or it came loose.
The motor was also used when I got it, supposedly it had been freshly rebuilt but using 1000 mile pistons.
It's been drinking oil for the last 14 months, so i also believe there was a issue with the original seating of the rings?
No way of knowing at this point, but ill be testing it all when I get to that point!
At this point I'm trying to just gather info for replacement pistons and rings!
Racingtheburg
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Top of piston look like? I will shoot this thread over at Rick from Livernois to see what his thoughts are.
To me it looks like the rings were not made to handle the boost you put to them (or failed, or ring gap wrong). After failing they allowed more boost to hit the piston with high temperatures trying to escape down instead of out the valve.
To me it looks like the rings were not made to handle the boost you put to them (or failed, or ring gap wrong). After failing they allowed more boost to hit the piston with high temperatures trying to escape down instead of out the valve.
Last edited:
Racingtheburg
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Above in red I think is your issue. Who did the "freshly rebuilt"?
one eyed willy
Pizzle fo shizzle
Yes, I believe it had something to do with the rings as well.the melted section is right where the top ring gap would be.
Also just looked at the piston again and directly on the opposite side of the melted section, the second ring land is cracked in 2 spots.
Also just looked at the piston again and directly on the opposite side of the melted section, the second ring land is cracked in 2 spots.
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The differences between 4032 and 2618 listed earlier in this thread are pretty spot on. I've seen both 4032 and 2618 stuff hold up just fine at higher horsepower levels and bigger boost.... and at the same time I've seen them both fail into a melted pool of aluminum at much lower power levels. The key to the whole thing is the tune-up.
We had an employees Mach 1 a number of years ago that had a built-up stroker engine and was Procharged. Tons of time on the chassis dyno and boost numbers in the 30 lb range with power around 750 RWHP. The car went to the track often and I'm sure saw it's share of "spirited jaunts" during its daily commute. We had the opportunity to take that engine apart after a year or so for a further upgrade and we found that the pistons were still in excellent shape, these were the Mahle 4032 models.
On the opposite end of the spectrum though I've seen engines where they were running 12-13 lbs of boost on pump gas and just missed the tune-up and the pistons melted first shot out.
Regardless of whether its 4032 or 2618, the aluminum itself won't melt unless something is wrong. When detonation occurs the pressure waves can blow-out the boundary layer that protects the piston. Once this happens you've got an open flame blowing directly on the piston. Normally the piston will always have this boundary layer of un-burnt mixture which is in direct contact with it. This boundary layer won't burn because the piston temperature is lower than ignition temperature of the fuel-air mix. This keeps the piston protected during normal operation. When you start adding detonation into the mix though you quickly start to lose this protection.
Most often the damage starts near the rings or outer crown of the piston because these pressure waves are reflected back off the cylinder wall. These reflected pressure waves then recombine with other pressure waves and amplify the intensity in these locals. This is why the ring area suffers so quickly.
It's important to remember that there are a large amount of factors that will control whether or not detonation will take place. Air/fuel ratio, ignition timing, fuel octane and type, chamber turbulence and mixture motion, piston temperatures, cooling system, oil contamination, etc. So having just your air/fuel where you think it needs to be is only one piece of the puzzle.
We've shifted a lot of our piston offerings towards the 2618 pistons. This is for a couple of reasons. The 4032 piston in most cases will hold up better over time compared to a 2618 piston, it basically just "holds its shape" better. The downside of 4032 and it's resistance to deformation is just that, its resistance to deformation. When detonation is introduced the 4032 piston is going to have a tougher time "absorbing" or dealing with the shock and pressure because of the material. A 2618 piston will usually offer a little more conformity under abusive conditions.
This is not to say that the 4032 piston is not a great piston though. It's just a matter of application and how well the variables are going to be controlled. If you plan to run pump gas and mid-level boost ranges (10-20lbs) you'll probably be better off with 2618 because you've introduced a huge variable, the fuel. Pump fuel can vary greatly from station to station, brand to brand, etc. The amount of time its been sitting in the tank can also have an affect. Just think about how often the Regular (87 octane) tank is probably filled and cycled at a gas station in comparison to the Premium (93 Octane) tank. How many more people buy Regular fuel. So while your tune might be setup for Premium fuel (93 octane) there is no guarantee that what you are getting out of the tank is actually 93 octane, in theory it should be, but what if its 91 octane and you're tuned to the edge of what 93 octane will take?
For the higher power/bigger boost applications I tend to prefer to use the 2618 pistons as they have a larger safety margin. If you know the tuning is going to be spot on and you're setup is pretty dialed in there is no reason you can't run the 4032 stuff and make big power and run more boost, but you have to have your setup dial-in.
With any piston, or engine for that matter it's always better to do your tuning and testing and push the limits in a slow methodical manner, bumping it up a little each time. Once you've reached the max it will take you should then back it off a step or two for safety.
We had an employees Mach 1 a number of years ago that had a built-up stroker engine and was Procharged. Tons of time on the chassis dyno and boost numbers in the 30 lb range with power around 750 RWHP. The car went to the track often and I'm sure saw it's share of "spirited jaunts" during its daily commute. We had the opportunity to take that engine apart after a year or so for a further upgrade and we found that the pistons were still in excellent shape, these were the Mahle 4032 models.
On the opposite end of the spectrum though I've seen engines where they were running 12-13 lbs of boost on pump gas and just missed the tune-up and the pistons melted first shot out.
Regardless of whether its 4032 or 2618, the aluminum itself won't melt unless something is wrong. When detonation occurs the pressure waves can blow-out the boundary layer that protects the piston. Once this happens you've got an open flame blowing directly on the piston. Normally the piston will always have this boundary layer of un-burnt mixture which is in direct contact with it. This boundary layer won't burn because the piston temperature is lower than ignition temperature of the fuel-air mix. This keeps the piston protected during normal operation. When you start adding detonation into the mix though you quickly start to lose this protection.
Most often the damage starts near the rings or outer crown of the piston because these pressure waves are reflected back off the cylinder wall. These reflected pressure waves then recombine with other pressure waves and amplify the intensity in these locals. This is why the ring area suffers so quickly.
It's important to remember that there are a large amount of factors that will control whether or not detonation will take place. Air/fuel ratio, ignition timing, fuel octane and type, chamber turbulence and mixture motion, piston temperatures, cooling system, oil contamination, etc. So having just your air/fuel where you think it needs to be is only one piece of the puzzle.
We've shifted a lot of our piston offerings towards the 2618 pistons. This is for a couple of reasons. The 4032 piston in most cases will hold up better over time compared to a 2618 piston, it basically just "holds its shape" better. The downside of 4032 and it's resistance to deformation is just that, its resistance to deformation. When detonation is introduced the 4032 piston is going to have a tougher time "absorbing" or dealing with the shock and pressure because of the material. A 2618 piston will usually offer a little more conformity under abusive conditions.
This is not to say that the 4032 piston is not a great piston though. It's just a matter of application and how well the variables are going to be controlled. If you plan to run pump gas and mid-level boost ranges (10-20lbs) you'll probably be better off with 2618 because you've introduced a huge variable, the fuel. Pump fuel can vary greatly from station to station, brand to brand, etc. The amount of time its been sitting in the tank can also have an affect. Just think about how often the Regular (87 octane) tank is probably filled and cycled at a gas station in comparison to the Premium (93 Octane) tank. How many more people buy Regular fuel. So while your tune might be setup for Premium fuel (93 octane) there is no guarantee that what you are getting out of the tank is actually 93 octane, in theory it should be, but what if its 91 octane and you're tuned to the edge of what 93 octane will take?
For the higher power/bigger boost applications I tend to prefer to use the 2618 pistons as they have a larger safety margin. If you know the tuning is going to be spot on and you're setup is pretty dialed in there is no reason you can't run the 4032 stuff and make big power and run more boost, but you have to have your setup dial-in.
With any piston, or engine for that matter it's always better to do your tuning and testing and push the limits in a slow methodical manner, bumping it up a little each time. Once you've reached the max it will take you should then back it off a step or two for safety.
one eyed willy
Pizzle fo shizzle
i tore the pistons and rods apart this weekend. the other 7 pistons looked great. new pistons will be lower compression this time around and 2618 with SS rings. block was dropped off this morning to get torque plate honed. they dont think they will have to bore it.
Racingtheburg
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What rings did they put on old pistons
Mike thanks for the post.
Sent from my LG-MS770 using Tapatalk 2
Mike thanks for the post.
Sent from my LG-MS770 using Tapatalk 2
one eyed willy
Pizzle fo shizzle
new moly rings
1/4MILEMUSTANG
forum member
you'll be fine with Mahle's, but i wouldnt push them much further than that just to be safe. Just be sure your cylinder clearances are spot on cause the mahles are a short skirt design and from what i remember livernoise doesn't have mahle put the offset pin in them so they will be noisy if the clearance is too loose. and as usual...the tune will be the life of the pistons.
I personally prefer CP pistons hands down
I personally prefer CP pistons hands down
one eyed willy
Pizzle fo shizzle
Your late to the party,lol.
Check out post 21, you are correct about not pushing them! Mahler are gone now, switching to Manley 2618!
Check out post 21, you are correct about not pushing them! Mahler are gone now, switching to Manley 2618!
Bobby
turbo gt about to go fast
I prefer cp also that is what I run in all my cars.
aleborjas
forum member
you need SS rings and 18 cc's dish
I have JE 17cc dish pistons in my engine now and I am not happy with the lower compression. I am going with Manley 6.5cc dish pistons and SS rings on my next build. These mod motors just don't have any low end power with the lower compression.
Earl
Earl
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