Phaser or Valve Train?

[01yellerCobra]

I got a call yesterday from the wife saying her car died. Thankfully she was only a couple miles from the house. When I got there she told me she was making a turn and the car started making noise and the CEL came on. So she shut it down coasted to the side and called me. I had her fire it up and it sounded like valve train. After we got off work I had it towed home and checked for codes. It popped a P0345, bank 2 cam sensor. I thought ok, sensor is bad causing the phaser to hit it's limits. I replaced the sensor with no change. Today I was able to get into it a little deeper. Pulled all the plugs and aside from being wore out they all looked good. We removed the valve covers and everything was in it's place. Nothing looked scored. I wiggled all the followers and they were tight. There was oil pooled in the head so I'm guessing it's getting oil. Just to be sure I picked up a mechanical oil pressure gauge and it showed 75psi at start up. I checked down at the filter where the stock sending unit is. I put new plugs in just because I didn't want to do all the work and put old plugs back in. I tried to datalog it, but couldn't find the right PID for the cam angle. I found cam_angle(0) and cam_angle(1) I think it was. Neither were the right ones because it showed no changed when the engine was idling. While looking up the code it said the crank position sensor could be at fault as well, but I don't see that causing the issue. I'm leaning towards the phaser because if I let it idle long enough the tapping/knocking will get quieter and then the code pops up. The sound really sounds like it's coming from the center of the engine. I didn't think to do the stethoscope trick until I came inside and I was in the shower.

We did all the timing components about 10k miles ago. We did the phasers, chains, guides, and tensioners. The chains still seemed tight to me. Is it possible the phaser is just shot and causing the issues? I read the symptoms for the code and it's dead on. It runs rough, has no power, and shakes a lot. What do you guys think?

 

[travelers]

I would replace the crank sensor as its possible bad.

 

[01yellerCobra]

So then it's possible the noise I'm hearing is the phaser hitting it's limits?

 

[travelers]

One senior has so much influence on other processing some times it will surprise you. That is where I would start.

 

[cdynaco]

I would replace the crank sensor as its possible bad.

One senior has so much influence on other processing some times it will surprise you. That is where I would start.

That makes sense to me. I'd replace them all, fairly easy.

Question on replacing the crank sensor - do you have to have Ford do a crank re-learn procedure? Or can you just replace the sensor and be good to go?

 

[01yellerCobra]

I can understand the sensors affecting each other. But my concern is the knocking/tapping. Will the phasers hit the limits that hard?

As far as I know it doesn't need a re-learn. That didn't start until 2011.

 

[01yellerCobra]

Swapped out the crank sensor with no change. Ended up with a couple of extra codes. P0345 (cam sensor bank 2), P0349 (cam sensor intermittent bank 2), and P2197 (bank 2 O2 sensor stuck lean). As I was walking around the car I noticed the exhaust on the drivers side was cold. I could feel the pulses, but it was actually cold. I did the test where you unplug an injector to see if there's a change. There was no change when unplugging any of the injectors on the driver side. Checked the passenger side and it sounded like it wanted to stall each time. Plus, after I shut the engine off I could feel the heat radiating from the passenger exhaust manifold. I was able to grab and hold on to the driver side manifold. So I'm thinking the whole driver side is dead. And the only thing I can think of that would cause that is the ECU. So now I'm on the look out for one.

 

[01yellerCobra]

Just to keep this thread updated.....

After doing some research I saw a few guys say they had similar codes when the alternator was going out. A couple said their cars ran rough too. So I took the alternator into Autozone to have it tested, but naturally they didn't have the right set up to test this type of alternator. Since the bearings were squeaking when I spun it I went ahead and dropped the money for the new alternator. But it didn't change anything. I looked over the wiring and didn't see anything chaffed or broken. I checked all the fuses under the hood that seem to go with controlling the COPs and injectors. At this point I'm thinking it's ECU. I'm going to send it out and get it tested/repaired.

 

[cdynaco]

As far as I know it doesn't need a re-learn. That didn't start until 2011.

Thanks.

There are more knowledgeable people here than me but I've been chewing on this.
I don't understand why you assume its the ECU. A sensor or sensors went out, the variable cam timing was not being controlled properly, and you got valve train noise. Then with one bank apparently not firing you go right to ECU when you didn't have ECU problems before. When all 4 COP's on one side go out my first thought would be a wiring issue that feeds those. Like one of the wiring harness plugs? Did something get unhooked when you removed the cam covers? An O2 sensor on one side somehow get disconnected? If the MAF was loose or faulty both banks would be affected so it shouldn't be that. But seems like something that feeds the whole bank vs just feeding individual cylinders.

I also remember reading about the alternator issue. When they're going out they sometimes throw some whacko codes.

 

[01yellerCobra]

At this point I'm thinking the noise is secondary. I think it has to do with everything being jumped around because the engine is shaking so much. I did the stethoscope trick and didn't hear any of the noise under the valve covers.

I don't know what's going on with the cam timing to be honest. I tried to datalog, but couldn't seem to find the right PID. I was able to do it in my 08 Expedition when I was troubleshooting so you would think I'd be able to do it in the Mustang. I've replaced the sensors that were supposed to be bad and I'm pretty sure they're not since nothing has changed. I replaced the alternator with a new as I wrote in my last post. And I've gone over the wiring hoping to find something broken or chaffed. So I didn't go right to the ECU. I've done a lot of troubleshooting before making that decision.

AFAIK the ECU controls the COPs directly. There is no in between. At least that's how it was with the earlier cars. So since the wiring is still intact and nothing is broken or chaffed that leads me to the ECU. And just because I didn't have ECU issues before doesn't mean it can't pop up. The car was driving fine then just stopped being fine. She wasn't romping on it or anything when it happened.

So as you can tell I didn't come to this decision just because. I actually took steps of troubleshooting before making this decision.

 

[cdynaco]

At this point I'm thinking the noise is secondary. I think it has to do with everything being jumped around because the engine is shaking so much. I did the stethoscope trick and didn't hear any of the noise under the valve covers.

I don't know what's going on with the cam timing to be honest. I tried to datalog, but couldn't seem to find the right PID. I was able to do it in my 08 Expedition when I was troubleshooting so you would think I'd be able to do it in the Mustang. I've replaced the sensors that were supposed to be bad and I'm pretty sure they're not since nothing has changed. I replaced the alternator with a new as I wrote in my last post. And I've gone over the wiring hoping to find something broken or chaffed. So I didn't go right to the ECU. I've done a lot of troubleshooting before making that decision.

AFAIK the ECU controls the COPs directly. There is no in between. At least that's how it was with the earlier cars. So since the wiring is still intact and nothing is broken or chaffed that leads me to the ECU. And just because I didn't have ECU issues before doesn't mean it can't pop up. The car was driving fine then just stopped being fine. She wasn't romping on it or anything when it happened.

So as you can tell I didn't come to this decision just because. I actually took steps of troubleshooting before making this decision.

Gotcha. Curious how it turns out.

 

[thump_rrr]

I still believe it is a sensor issue.
If it were my car I would swap O2 sensors, VCT solenoids, cam position sensors between left and right before swapping CPU's.
The O2 can be reading lean so the CPU can be going full rich cooling the cylinders.
Check short term fuel trims STFT bank 1 and 2.
Pull the plugs and see what the 2 banks look like.
You can even swap injectors to see the results.

 

[01yellerCobra]

When I get home I'm going to swap in the old VCT solenoid on bank 2 since they weren't actually bad when I replaced them. The cam sensor has been swapped with a new one. I know new doesn't necessarily mean good, but with zero change I'm guessing it's not that sensor. The old bank 2 plugs were a little darker then bank 1 when I pulled them, but not enough to show pig rich. It's not spewing black smoke like you would think it would when going full rich.

 

[01yellerCobra]

Whoever designed the driver side O2 sensor placement needs to die a slow death and then spend eternity in the 7th circle of hell. I'm ready to torch this fucking car.

 

[thump_rrr]

Whoever designed the driver side O2 sensor placement needs to die a slow death and then spend eternity in the 7th circle of hell. I'm ready to torch this fucking car.

That's why you need Longtube headers.

 

[01yellerCobra]

If I didn't live in Cali I'd seriously consider it.

 

[01yellerCobra]

Got the O2 sensor replaced today. Car ran a little better and the P2197 code was gone. But it still wasn't 100%. I found the original VCT solenoids and was going to replace the one in the car. However after I got the valve cover off and was poking around I noticed the phaser spring didn't look right. It looked like it had unwound. I told my wife it didn't look right. So I went by the dealer and picked one up. As I was loosening the original phaser the part with the tabs popped the rest of the way off. The rivets that hold it together had sheared. My buddy and I were able to swap it with him holding the chain and me moving the phaser into place. It's all smooth again and the wife reports that it runs great.

Here's the broken phaser....

 

[cdynaco]

Got the O2 sensor replaced today. Car ran a little better and the P2197 code was gone. But it still wasn't 100%. I found the original VCT solenoids and was going to replace the one in the car. However after I got the valve cover off and was poking around I noticed the phaser spring didn't look right. It looked like it had unwound. I told my wife it didn't look right. So I went by the dealer and picked one up. As I was loosening the original phaser the part with the tabs popped the rest of the way off. The rivets that hold it together had sheared. My buddy and I were able to swap it with him holding the chain and me moving the phaser into place. It's all smooth again and the wife reports that it runs great.

Here's the broken phaser....

Glad you found the problem... I don't think the engine liked being ran when the sensors were out. Erratic signals yielded undue stress.

 

[01yellerCobra]

The codes were a symptom. The phaser wasn't doing what the ECU was commanding so it popped the cam sensor codes.

 

[cdynaco]

We did all the timing components about 10k miles ago. We did the phasers, chains, guides, and tensioners. The chains still seemed tight to me. Is it possible the phaser is just shot and causing the issues? I read the symptoms for the code and it's dead on. It runs rough, has no power, and shakes a lot. What do you guys think?

The codes were a symptom. The phaser wasn't doing what the ECU was commanding so it popped the cam sensor codes.

Perhaps. Chicken or egg thing. Especially since you recently replaced components. Except sensors.

Why would a new phaser break so soon at 10k?

As for the entire bank not appearing hot, do you presume all four cylinders had open valves because of the broken phaser?