Pro Touring Cars and Optiman Street Car Shootout

[Racer47]

Pro Touring Cars and Optima Street Car Shootout

First off congrats to Terry Fair for the Optima overall win. Very impressive against some very high buck cars (not that your isn't). I realize I'm a couple weeks late on this, sorry, been busy. His post on the win if you missed it

http://www.s197forum.com/forum/showpost.php?p=2015200&postcount=645

But my question is this. Would it be Optima legal to take an SCCA Trans-Am or GT-1 or similar car and add a few things to make it more street legal and enter that? Terry talks about the pro touring cars here....

http://www.s197forum.com/forum/showpost.php?p=2005382&postcount=617

and talks about the cost being 100k to 200k, maybe more. And you still end up with a redesigned street car. Why not start with Pratt & Miller, Roush or Protofab road race chassis and then add some street legal stuff?

I ran GT-1 for years and a few GTO races (back when it was still IMSA) and those are wicked road race cars. I seriously doubt any pro touring type car will hang with these.

http://www.racingjunk.com/GT/2833988/Roush-Trans-Am-GT1-SCCA-Mustang.html

This car is already sold but there are many more like it. Maybe its just me but I think this is the way to go for something with so little rules as the Optima. Plus these cars can easily be less than 3000 lbs. Mine was 2650 lbs without driver and ballast.

 

[dontlifttoshift]

You will have fun but you should never win, if that is what you are thinking. You are not the first person to think of this. The rules are specifically designed to prevent racecars with license plates from winning. Here are the pertinent rules and the rest can be found here.

Section 2
Design & Engineering
All vehicles be will be judged on their construction and modifications that enhance the
performance, functionality and appearance of a vehicle while maintaining or enhancing the
“Daily Driver” features and accessories. This segment is for performance street cars and as
such must strike a balance to reach the highest possible performance, maintain or highlight
features that allow a vehicle to be regularly driven, and achieve quality fit and finish. The end
result should be a consistent theme and pleasing overall package. Yes, form and function can
and do go together!​

Total possible points:

25​

1. 5 points – will be awarded to each participant that presents their vehicle, within the designated timeframe, to the designated location for judging.​

2.

10 points possible - points will be awarded for each of the following “street car” functional features: (all items must be in working order at the time of judging)

a. ​

​

2 points – Glass - All glass as required by law per the date of manufacture (windshield and all side glass must be DOT, rear glass can be Lexan). Driver and passenger glass must be roll up as of date of manufacture - can be

upgraded to electric. In the rare case where an OE car did not have side or rear glass, an exception can be made pending USCA official approval.

​

b. ​

​

2 points - Exterior Lighting - complete lighting package including headlights, backup, turn, brake and running lights.

c. ​

​

2 points - Interior electronics - working fuel gauge, horn (audible at 200’), basic or advanced audio system (proof or evidence of radio delete option is acceptable), HVAC system (AC is optional), dome or interior lighting.

d. ​

​

2 points – Interior – OE style or better carpeted or soundproofed interior w/finished door panels and dash – does not need to be stock.​

e. ​

​

2 points - Street Drivability/Comfort/Ergonomics – vehicle has the ability to negotiate basic street obstacles; all weather drivability that includes windshield wipers ; capability of being sealed in case of poor weather; driver and passenger ease of ingress and egress; occupant comfort and visibility while driving.

3. ​

​

10 points - A panel of qualified industry-expert judges will use USCA developed, confidential, consistent and exacting criteria to further evaluate each car on its overall function, design, engineering, theme, creative use of parts/materials and overall fit & finish. Points will be broken down into tenths (0.1) – giving each judge appropriate latitude for scoring vehicles that may be visually similar but differ greatly in design or

construction quality. ​

4. Five qualified judges at each event will judge each vehicle in the Platinum category - the
high and the low score for each vehicle will be disregarded in order to eliminate positive
or negative bias.​

5. There will be two awards in the D&E category​

a. Platinum winner - determined by judges and points total​

b. Gold/Silver winner - determined by popular participant vote​

​

​

​

​

You may be thinking, piss on those points, if I can out drive everyone and win all three drving events, I have enough to win. That may be true, but you are really missing the point then.

With the roush car you linked, good luck making it through the road rally.

As far as the 100k to 200k, Terry is right about that......especially if you are paying for labor. Doing it all yourself takes 60 to 70 in parts depending on who cool you want to be and how bulletproof you try to make it.




​

 

[Racer47]

I don't disagree with anything you said. But the pro touring cars are more and more becoming race cars. In reality I don't have the time, ambition or cash to either build or buy a competitive optima car. Just bench racing.

But trans am and imsa style road race cars will easily complete the road rally. They have plenty of cooling and can be geared as high or low as needed. The only annoyance would be the small dia triple disk clutch as they don't like to be slipped.

Heres another car, asking $115k, 2:12 at Road America, 746 hp. I bet this car is pushing 175 mph into turn 5 at Elkhart. That will pucker you up!

http://www.colinsclassicauto.com/detail.php?car=394

I'll spot the field 25 pts with this evil machine.

 

[dontlifttoshift]

I don't disagree with anything you said. But the pro touring cars are more and more becoming race cars. In reality I don't have the time, ambition or cash to either build or buy a competitive optima car. Just bench racing.

Don't get me started on PT cars turning into race cars, they are and it is ridiculous......that's another thread......on another forum.

So if we are bench racing, you just need the street car stuff. All lights, a wiper, an ipod based radio....actually just a bluetooth speaker linked to your phone would do, some strap in side glass (lexan), another seat, and carpet/door panels headliner. Do all this and ballast up to 3001# and go win.

I know nothing about those cars but I think you would have to take a bunch of spring out and revalve the shocks for the tires.

Where in SE Wisconsin? I am just south of the cheddar curtain. Are you going to the event at RA?

 

[Racer47]

Some of those cars already have lights, some even have turn signals, for the 24 hr and 12 hr races. But I still dont have 115k to toss around.

I'm 30 miles NW of Milwaukee. So I will likely go to RA Optima to watch not enter. My 06 with 480 whp (and some other stuff) will not be competitive. Plus the entry fee is $500. I can abuse my car for much less money than that.

Also the Hot Rod Power Tour will be at the Dells in a few weeks too. Gonna be a lot of nice cars around here in June

 

[NDSP]

Some of those cars already have lights, some even have turn signals, for the 24 hr and 12 hr races. But I still dont have 115k to toss around.

I'm 30 miles NW of Milwaukee. So I will likely go to RA Optima to watch not enter. My 06 with 480 whp (and some other stuff) will not be competitive. Plus the entry fee is $500. I can abuse my car for much less money than that.

Also the Hot Rod Power Tour will be at the Dells in a few weeks too. Gonna be a lot of nice cars around here in June

I thought something similar and totally regretted the decision. One, for the number of runs, days, and fun you get, it is the best bargain going even at $500. I went to spectate and it didn't take long for me to realize I had made a mistake. I hope they come again next year I'm definitely going to run. Terry won against 1000whp cars with 440whp. So yes you can compete, if you setup is good enough and your driving is. Even if they aren't there will be others in your same boat and massive fun will be had.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[modernbeat]

If you want to see an awesome -performing- car like you are thinking of, but still did not win the Optima qualifier, look at Brian Hobaugh's Camaro.

http://www.lateral-g.net/forums/showthread.php4?t=23997

It was originally built to be a streetable SCCA C-Prepared autocross car. But it's lack of interior and amenities (it doesn't even have door glass) holds it back in the judging portion. And the judging is half points and half subjective, so while an Ipod might be a stereo for the points portion, the judges will rule pretty harshly in their portion.

Even if a car like Brian's could crush the event, it's still a fun and worthwhile event. The people, the cars, and the variety of competitions are a thrill. And, the number of autocross and track laps was huge.

 

[Racer47]

I thought something similar and totally regretted the decision...... Even if they aren't there will be others in your same boat and massive fun will be had.

That is damn good advice and sounds like something I would say. I actually am reconsidering. Problem is my car is not sorted, I'm still working on that and my driving is rusty. I raced GT-1, GTO and super late model asphalt ovals for 20+ yrs but its been a while and I know I will not drive like I know I can and that is frustrating.

If you want to see an awesome -performing- car like you are thinking of, but still did not win the Optima qualifier, look at Brian Hobaugh's Camaro.

It was originally built to be a streetable SCCA C-Prepared autocross car. But it's lack of interior and amenities (it doesn't even have door glass) holds it back in the judging portion. And the judging is half points and half subjective, so while an Ipod might be a stereo for the points portion, the judges will rule pretty harshly in their portion.

Thats a tough car but still nothing like a real road race chassis. Maybe its because Trans-Am (and professional road racing in general) is not as popular as it used to be. But few car guys seem to know what these cars are like anymore. But you can not take a street tub and make it equal to a purpose built, well designed, tested and sorted to the n-th degree road race chassis.

In my mind these cars are the ultimate road race weapon of choice for a stock appearing car.

http://www.gotransam.com/

Plus I never liked judging. The only judge needed at a race car event is the checkered flag and/or stop watch.

 

[csamsh]

Plus I never liked judging. The only judge needed at a race car event is the checkered flag and/or stop watch.

Ultimate Street Car Association...

 

[modernbeat]

Well, we also work with this GT1-Evolution car. It's a true tubeframe car and I think the only Camaro part on the entire car is the tailights. It would fall even further down the test for "street car", though it would best just about anyone on the track portion in it's normal trim. But based on the realities of competition using "street" tires, it would not see the sort of performance we usually see from this sort of car, and I don't think it could win at the Optima Challenge.

Remember, a win is worth 25 points. A second place is worth 22 points. Even if the winner eclipses the performance of the second place car by ten times the gap to third, they still only win 25 points.

 

[Racer47]

Nice car. Is that an Irv Heorr chassis? Looks like it could be, wide 5 hubs and a protofab clone (from what I can see).

Well, we also work with this GT1-Evolution car. It's a true tubeframe car and I think the only Camaro part on the entire car is the tailights.

Sounds about right, years ago you had to run the stock glass windshield too.

...... I don't think it could win at the Optima Challenge.

You're probably right. Plus I don't think the optima guys would want a car like that to win anyway.

My only point is neither Hobaugh's Camaro or the GT-1 Camaro is really a street car. For all the effort put into Hobaugh's car to make it a race car you could spend similar effort to make the GT-1 car more street like and still end up with a much faster car.

But like I said earlier, I'm not going to do it, just day dreaming. Maybe I just miss my GT-1 car. I've had 5 race cars and 26 street cars and my last GT-1 car is only one I miss.

 

[Department Of Boost]

Terry won against 1000whp cars with 440whp.

Not taking anything away from Terry, but when the events top speed is 117mph and you are on 200 treadwear rated tires that 1000hp (and I highly doubt one of those cars made 1000hp) is useless.

Now switch the hot lap competition over to lets say a lap of Road America, Road Atlanta, VIR, etc and those 1000hp cars wouldn't get touched. They will never man up and run these things at places like that though. Someone could get hurt.

I'm re-thinking doing the MIS event after seeing the coverage Terry posted from Texas. My 2007's power, which is it's biggest advantage would be completely useless. I would rather go with something lighter and making 450hp or so the way the events are structured.

 

[dontlifttoshift]

USCA is running Daytona next and Road America in June.

Mike's car only made 900 at the wheels, http://www.camaroperformers.com/featured-camaros/1310-1967-chevy-camaro/

 

[Department Of Boost]

USCA is running Daytona next and Road America in June.

They won't be running either the full course or the "short course", they will run some sort of super short infield bull. Daytona is boring enough already, it will be worse.

Last time they ran at Road America they only used under half the track (which still makes it 2mi) and it was decent fast, but it was still a goofy setup with no flow.

I know I come of as an A-hole saying this, but they need to man that competition up. They already have AutoX which is effectively danger/ballz free. They need to run some real road courses where the cars and drivers get tested more and there is some actual risk.

Of course that is easy for me to say, I've run almost all the tracks in the US on 2 wheels, elbow to elbow, fairing to fairing and going a whole lot faster than these cars can go.

Mike's car only made 900 at the wheels, http://www.camaroperformers.com/featured-camaros/1310-1967-chevy-camaro/

"Mike built the car at his shop, Dusold Designs, and even though the Camaro just recently hit the road, it’s already a solid performer in the handling department and it knocked down a 10.98 e.t. at 135 mph blast at the dragstrip"

That isn't even close to 900 at the tires^^^^

I'm a grumpy dick today...........

 

[dontlifttoshift]

There are plenty of venues where guys can go race wheel to wheel, balls out, this isn't one of them.

Let's get down to it. This isn't a race series, it's a sponsor showcase. I don't say that negatively, but that's what it is. The idea is to get people to buy parts, that's why the shows exist covering each event. That's why every segment is sponsored, that's why you need participants (personalities?). To get participants you need an event that appeals to a broad group, from noob to pro. To get the noobs you need a safe environment and in order for that to happen, you might be bored drving around at a paltry 117 mph.

The next thing that most people miss is that this is still a drivers thing. The car setup hasn't evolved to the point where 1/2 psi in the rear tires is the difference between 1st and 12th so great drivers in an average car can place very well and have a great time and drive home.

It may not be your cup of tea, I get it. Motorcycle racing is crazy, I don't know where you guys put your giant balls when you ride. Draggin my knees on the ground at those speeds is not something I am interested in.

No reason to be grumpy, it's supposed to be fun.

 

[csamsh]

Mikes car can be turned anywhere from about 500-1000. I think he usually runs 650-700 for road course events. I pointed him by once and it was awesome.

 

[Department Of Boost]

There are plenty of venues where guys can go race wheel to wheel, balls out, this isn't one of them.

Let's get down to it. This isn't a race series, it's a sponsor showcase. I don't say that negatively, but that's what it is. The idea is to get people to buy parts, that's why the shows exist covering each event. That's why every segment is sponsored, that's why you need participants (personalities?). To get participants you need an event that appeals to a broad group, from noob to pro. To get the noobs you need a safe environment and in order for that to happen, you might be bored drving around at a paltry 117 mph.

The next thing that most people miss is that this is still a drivers thing. The car setup hasn't evolved to the point where 1/2 psi in the rear tires is the difference between 1st and 12th so great drivers in an average car can place very well and have a great time and drive home.

I get it, I see the reasoning and if I were running it I would probably do the same thing. It's just too "PG-13" for my tastes. Or at least what I am willing to spend big bucks on. If I could do it for free or on the cheap I would be happy to do it every weekend. But smoking through a set of tires, brake pads, probably rotors and then having to do a light "do over" on the car, pay for travel, pay for this, pay for that, etc, etc, etc just doesn't work with my internal $$$/fun equation. I'm only 45min away and that event would cost me at least $2500. And that is if nothing went wrong.

It may not be your cup of tea, I get it. Motorcycle racing is crazy, I don't know where you guys put your giant balls when you ride. Draggin my knees on the ground at those speeds is not something I am interested in.

It's not as scary as it looks........ok, it is. But it's the best drug in the world.

No reason to be grumpy, it's supposed to be fun.

I get ya there, the problem is I haven't competed in more than a couple of years now. It's killing me. If I don't start racing something fast and dangerous against other people in the next couple of years I may loose my mind.

I'm over "not racing", it makes me grumpy.

 

[csamsh]

...so how much effort would it take to make your car AIX-worthy?

 

[Department Of Boost]

...so how much effort would it take to make your car AIX-worthy?

It would be easier to start with a fresh chassis.

And I couldn't afford to race AIX the way that I would want to.

When I get back into racing it will be in something like AI and I will rent seats, not own my own car(s). Or dirt roundy round stuff. Or maybe get back on bikes. Getting back on bikes would be easier for me with my industry connections, but I will never be as fast as I was so that could be frustrating. And I'm not so sure I am willing to risk my life like I used to.

What I would really like to do is Rally, but it is crazy expensive and there is a ton of travel. Unless I win the lottery it won't happen.

Not racing sucks.

 

[Racer47]

Not racing sucks.

I know how you feel. After you get to a certain level, racing in lower levels just isn't the same.

If you want some cheap thrills come out to Slinger speedway and run the spectator eliminator. You start from dead stop, race 2 laps (3 in the final), single elimination. Run what you brung. Its not a lot of track time but the track is very cool, 1/4 mile very high banks and its not as easy as it seems.