Project less is more

[Chenthorne]

Hey guys new member here from Nashville Tn. I just recently bought a 2012 base model GT on Dec. 23rd. My plans for this car is to compete in the new SCCA STP class. Hoping to run 315 tires this year but we will see if that happends.



Just to give to give you guys a little bit of background about me. I'm a Mazda tech here in TN. Always loved suspension work. Naturally tinkering with the alignment machine at work, playing with coilovers/other suspension components and playing with scales has always been fun to me. This past year I had been autocrossing on and off my 2003 Mach 1. I have owned this car for 9 years now. Car is a blast to drive at autocross and at track days. Mach 1 mods are torque arm, extreme duty lower control arms, front coil overs, subframe connectors, torque arm springs, panhard bar, bigger rear swaybar, K-member, and exhaust mods. Car has been autocrossed lately on Dunlop Direzza ZII's. Tires are great but they can't hang with RE-71R's by any means.







Any how now on to the new car. I weighed the car at a friends house with a quarter tank of fuel and no spare/jack. I was hoping for 3500. I was pleasantly suprised.



Cross weights were better than I expected also.



Believe it or not the first thing I ordered for this car was the Boss 302 steering wheel. The factory wheel is made by rubbermaid and I just don't care for it. Other parts I have ordered and installed just yesterday are BMR adjustable panhard bar, Msd 2 step, and Boss 302 coil covers. Just little things for now until I can decide what company to spend my money with for springs and shock/struts.

I enjoy reading several of your build threads on here. Figured I would start my own. Any suggestions for things you guys like or didn't like just let me know.

 

[Vorshlag-Fair]

Welcome and best of luck in STP. Look for the Facebook group we created for this new class - "SCCA STP - Street Touring Pony Car". Join up and we will approved you. Good discussions in there.

Your base 2012 GT seems really light - congrats! That's my 2013 GT with the base model 13.2" brakes. These are plenty good enough for autocross but a bit inadequate for road course abuse. If you are sticking ot STP only then just run some good brake pads (Carbotech AX6) and fluid (Motul RBF600) and leave them alone. There's some weight to be saved with some "big" brake kits, but its not as easy as some items...

The stock 18" base wheels are still boat anchors. It is easy to add 2" (18x10) or even 3" (18x11) wheels and wider tires and still lose pounds over the factory rolling stock.

Wheels and tires are a big part of STP, after you get the suspension sorted. I'd recommend no less than the STP class limit for your car: 18x11" wheels and 315/30/18 Rival-S tires. We have used this combo on a number of S197s for CAM, Optima and STP classes.

Getting the 315 to fit takes some tricks, but we're more than willing to help.

From running ST classes for the past decade I can tell you that suspension is your biggest gain, outside of having the best/widest tires on the right sized wheels. Don't waste time or money on "power mods" until you have spent every last dollar on useful suspension upgrades. Even with 315mm tires, the best 200 treadwear compounds (Re71R, Rival-S) still aren't even close to real Hoosiers, so you will probably be traction limited in the rear with even a bone stock Coyote 5.0L.

We have some proven S197 suspension packages that can work with all budgets and all competitiveness levels. A lot of the mods you did on the SN95 are not only unnecessary on the S197 but they can be downright detrimental. Beware the plethora of aftermarket bolt-on dood-dads for this car - the S197 just doesn't have the problems that need 1960-era fixes.

Whatever you do, just remember to have fun! STP should be a great place to race in this, it's first year. Once you get some fundamental suspension and tire mods in place, these S197 cars are a blast to drive, and STP allows you to do all of the good stuff.

Cheers,

 

[Chenthorne]

Thanks for the advice Fair. I will be emailing you guys tomorrow. When you weighed the black car did it still have the spare? I honestly don't know why mine is so light. Lol! I'm happy about it though.

I was hoping to keep the stock brakes as long as I can. I don't plan on doing track days in this car. I'll leave track duty to the Mach 1. I have been using Motul RBF600 for a year now. Great stuff at a great price. I was thinking carbotec pads would be the answer. I like and dislike hawk brakes. I'm currently running the street/race pads on the Mach 1 and they have killed the rotors. Not my thing. I would much rather replace pads more often.

The S197 is far superior than my SN95. I plan to keep the car stock powerwise minus a good tune and longtubes. I always want to be able to us all available power versus just a small amount of power. Watts link will be in the future so rear roll center can be adjusted as needed. I'm just looking for a solid set of dampners that I can afford. I'm not worried about the car having a super low ride height. Definitely don't want to screw up the front roll center.


STP should be an awesome class. I ran in CAM-C all last year. It was fun but only because my car would have been thrown into CP if not for CAM class. I plan to go to a few prosolo events this year and maybe just, just maybe nationals.

 

[csamsh]

Sweet build in the making....I've been after and after people to do a dedicated STP build, and it looks like we've got one brewing.

I like the consensus of sticking with the small brakes.

Any idea of a budget? Having gone through pretty much everything in an STP build, while not being able to look out of my office and into a race shop (sorry Terry), I may be able to point you at the best places to focus the dollars. The dampers/springs/camber/wheels/tires are definitely the first part of the list, but there are some other cheapish things that help, expensive things that don't, cheap things that don't...etc. You don't really have to reinvent a wheel, unless you want to!

Anyway, good luck!

You're not in Texas or Oklahoma by any chance, are you?

 

[Chenthorne]

Sweet build in the making....I've been after and after people to do a dedicated STP build, and it looks like we've got one brewing.

I like the consensus of sticking with the small brakes.

Any idea of a budget? Having gone through pretty much everything in an STP build, while not being able to look out of my office and into a race shop (sorry Terry), I may be able to point you at the best places to focus the dollars. The dampers/springs/camber/wheels/tires are definitely the first part of the list, but there are some other cheapish things that help, expensive things that don't, cheap things that don't...etc. You don't really have to reinvent a wheel, unless you want to!

Anyway, good luck!


You're not in Texas or Oklahoma by any chance, are you?

Yep. The plan with this car is just autocross. I have two mustangs and a daily so.....why not right?

I was also thinking smaller brakes to save money and focus on the meaningful items (wheels/tires suspension upgrades). As far as upgrades go, I'm all ears.

I never really set a budget for this car or the other car. I generally upgrade as much as I can without going into massive credit card debit. I will have to start small on this car for now and get everything remotely competitive and go from there (house hunting very soon). I just want to make my money goes as far as possible.

I unfortunately live in Tennessee. Pretty far from you guys. I wish I was closer.

 

[Speedboosted]

Yep. The plan with this car is just autocross. I have two mustangs and a daily so.....why not right?

I was also thinking smaller brakes to save money and focus on the meaningful items (wheels/tires suspension upgrades). As far as upgrades go, I'm all ears.

I never really set a budget for this car or the other car. I generally upgrade as much as I can without going into massive credit card debit. I will have to start small on this car for now and get everything remotely competitive and go from there (house hunting very soon). I just want to make my money goes as far as possible.

I unfortunately live in Tennessee. Pretty far from you guys. I wish I was closer.

Should've bought the Boss wheel I have for sale!! Lol but it sounds like you have a good list complied so far. Listen to whatever Vorshlag has to say, those guys are awesome and have never steered me wrong (pun intended).

 

[Norm Peterson]

You'll find that the S197 is a considerably better platform to start from than a Fox/SN95, particularly with respect to chassis stiffness and rear suspension.

Definitely more composed, without needing to do the same sort of major rear suspension revision to get away from an OE triangulated 4-link mess
(I used to autocross a '79 Chevy Malibu whose rear suspension geometry was quite similar to the Fox's).

Just shocks, struts, mildly stiffer sta-bars, 285/35 Michelin PSS on Terry's 18x11's, and a slightly non-stock alignment (that still isn't aggressive enough) should easily put you above 1.2g lateral once the tires are warm, with some low-hanging fruit still left hanging on the branches (side note: this is with Konis and the OE springs and on only the second track day in the last whole year).

Norm

 

[ArizonaGT]

I don't know how they weigh the car for classing, but make sure to be in the car or use driver ballast when setting corner weights.

 

[Chenthorne]

Should've bought the Boss wheel I have for sale!! Lol but it sounds like you have a good list complied so far. Listen to whatever Vorshlag has to say, those guys are awesome and have never steered me wrong (pun intended).

I used to work for a Ford dealer here in TN my old parts manager gave me a smoking good deal on one so I never even looking for a used wheel.

I sent the guys at Vorshlag and email and I cant wait to see how broke I will be

 

[Chenthorne]

You'll find that the S197 is a considerably better platform to start from than a Fox/SN95, particularly with respect to chassis stiffness and rear suspension.

Definitely more composed, without needing to do the same sort of major rear suspension revision to get away from an OE triangulated 4-link mess
(I used to autocross a '79 Chevy Malibu whose rear suspension geometry was quite similar to the Fox's).

Just shocks, struts, mildly stiffer sta-bars, 285/35 Michelin PSS on Terry's 18x11's, and a slightly non-stock alignment (that still isn't aggressive enough) should easily put you above 1.2g lateral once the tires are warm, with some low-hanging fruit still left hanging on the branches (side note: this is with Konis and the OE springs and on only the second track day in the last whole year).

Norm

Thanks for the data Norm. I'm going to have step it up and buy some data analysis parts to see what the car is doing this year.

It's night and day driving the cars back to back. You can feel how much stiffer the S197 chassis is over the noddle Fox platform car. Glad I didn't pay full retail on some of the components for the Mach 1. I would be sick to my stomach.

When should I start worrying about g forces taking away oil from the pick up? I have not had one of these oil pans off to know how baffled it is.

 

[Chenthorne]

I don't know how they weigh the car for classing, but make sure to be in the car or use driver ballast when setting corner weights.

Agreed. This was just to get a baseline of the car. Driver could use some weight reduction (215lbs) Lol! I don't think ballast is allowed in any of the SCCA autocross classes until it's basically a racecar per say (CP in this case). I'll have to double check.

 

[Vorshlag-Fair]

I don't think ballast is allowed in any of the SCCA autocross classes until it's basically a racecar per say (CP in this case). I'll have to double check.

If there is a minimum weight in a category, you can add ballast. But the SCCA weighs some cars with driver (Mod classes) and other classes without driver (SM, Prepared, CAM). Its confusing and needlessly hinders "heavier guys".

 

[dmfracer]

I'm searching for a car just like yours. Would you mind sharing the asking and final sale price, miles, overall condition and any mods that came with it?

Everything I'm seeing in New Orleans are either has accident/paint issues or is over priced.

 

[Chenthorne]

If there is a minimum weight in a category, you can add ballast. But the SCCA weighs some cars with driver (Mod classes) and other classes without driver (SM, Prepared, CAM). Its confusing and needlessly hinders "heavier guys".

Gotcha. Didn't think You were able to in the ST classes. The rule book changes all the time. I feel like looking at fast track is the only way to know what's going on.

 

[Chenthorne]

I'm searching for a car just like yours. Would you mind sharing the asking and final sale price, miles, overall condition and any mods that came with it?

Everything I'm seeing in New Orleans are either has accident/paint issues or is over priced.

Mileage on the car was 45k and change. Condition of the car is excellent for a used car. I don't think I couldn't have found a cleaner car. Someone actually liked to keep the inside and outside clean. They also oddly enough maintained the car. I had a friend look on the Ford warranty history and they never had any complaints. The only thing "modified" on the car was a set a mo-faster mufflers. Car was stock otherwise.

I honestly had to look for months before I found a car I liked enough to go look at. I found this one 2 hrs from home in Alabama. It was also $3-4k cheaper than any car in Nashville. Car was under $20k out the door. Keep looking man. You'll find one eventually.

 

[Vorshlag-Fair]

Gotcha. Didn't think You were able to in the ST classes. The rule book changes all the time. I feel like looking at fast track is the only way to know what's going on.

Ahh, didn't catch that... so NO, there is no minimum weight in the Street Touring category. you can make the car "as light as you want", so long as you don't violate the ST rules below.

http://cdn.growassets.net/user_file...street_touring_category_online.pdf?1432652724

Read those rules. These are all of the things you are allowed to do (plus anything listed in Street category). SCCA rules are written such that if a rule doesn't say you CAN do something then you CANNOT do it. Remember that, follow the "allowed modification" rules, and you can lose weight in a number of areas, legally. The big weight savings can be found in these legal mods:

• Front seat replacements (25 pound minimum weight, with mounting bracket)
• Exhaust headers (built to the ST rules)
• After-header cats and exhaust (see the rules)
• Lighter wheels and tires (no minimum weight)
• Lighter brakes (there are size limitations - cannot be smaller than the smallest factory rotors, etc)
• Lighter battery
• Some weight savings in coilover struts/springs

There's not much else you can do, that is allowed in ST, where you can lose significant weight. Our 3442 weight above was when we ran in STU, but only on an 18x10" wheel. This car had heavier Premium leather interior, race seats, long tubes, custom exhaust, light battery, but the heavy 14" front brakes. Your base GT could and should be able to get lighter than that, but maybe only another 40-50 pounds, on an extreme build?

Read the ST rules, learn them, live them.

 

[oldVOR]

I've been after and after people to do a dedicated STP build, and it looks like we've got one brewing.

Having gone through pretty much everything in an STP build, while not being able to look out of my office and into a race shop (sorry Terry), I may be able to point you at the best places to focus the dollars. The dampers/springs/camber/wheels/tires are definitely the first part of the list, but there are some other cheapish things that help, expensive things that don't, cheap things that don't...etc. You don't really have to reinvent a wheel, unless you want to!

Not an attempt to hi-jack the OP's thread, but, I'd enjoy insight from those that have been down this road for what works and doesn't. I think we'd all benefit from shared knowledge.

 

[modernbeat]

...I'd enjoy insight from those that have been down this road for what works and doesn't. I think we'd all benefit from shared knowledge.

This is really going to be an "it depends" thing. And it's going to depend on just how competitive you want to be, and/or how much of a dedicated car you are willing to build.

STP, and in particular the stick axle STP rules have some really open allowances that allow us a LOT of leeway. There is a lot of low hanging fruit, but for a 99% car, there is a whole lot of testing a lot of very small things to make it as good as it can get.

 

[Chenthorne]

Ahh, didn't catch that... so NO, there is no minimum weight in the Street Touring category. you can make the car "as light as you want", so long as you don't violate the ST rules below.

http://cdn.growassets.net/user_file...street_touring_category_online.pdf?1432652724

Read those rules. These are all of the things you are allowed to do (plus anything listed in Street category). SCCA rules are written such that if a rule doesn't say you CAN do something then you CANNOT do it. Remember that, follow the "allowed modification" rules, and you can lose weight in a number of areas, legally. The big weight savings can be found in these legal mods:

• Front seat replacements (25 pound minimum weight, with mounting bracket)
• Exhaust headers (built to the ST rules)
• After-header cats and exhaust (see the rules)
• Lighter wheels and tires (no minimum weight)
• Lighter brakes (there are size limitations - cannot be smaller than the smallest factory rotors, etc)
• Lighter battery
• Some weight savings in coilover struts/springs

There's not much else you can do, that is allowed in ST, where you can lose significant weight. Our 3442 weight above was when we ran in STU, but only on an 18x10" wheel. This car had heavier Premium leather interior, race seats, long tubes, custom exhaust, light battery, but the heavy 14" front brakes. Your base GT could and should be able to get lighter than that, but maybe only another 40-50 pounds, on an extreme build?

Read the ST rules, learn them, live them.

Seats would have to be put in before longtubes. I already know that I'm going to be thrown around in this car like a rage doll. I will likely do the same mods you guys did to the STU car. I cant tell you how much I like you guys weighing everything. It makes a big difference to me being able to see what actually helped versus some of the forum "gurus". Always enjoy checking out what you guys have going on.

I have to keep up with rules pretty regularly for our club since I'm tech and assistant competition director. I was even dumb enough to get my Solo safety stewards license so I get to fill out tons of paper work if someone screws up. Gotta love the if it does say you can do it, you can't rule.

 

[Chenthorne]

Just a quick update. I found a nice house to buy and it has killed my budget for now. Gotta think bigger picture though. I have recently swapped the springs on the car for the Ford Racing "P" springs, Koni str t struts/shocks, caster/camber plates. I dialed some camber (-2.7*) into the car and set toe at 0*. Car handles much better. I know it will only be that much better once I get a real setup from Terry and the guys at Vorshlag. The only reason for buying the lower end parts was because of good deals on the forums and store credit being used with american muscle.







I put the car on the dyno to get a base line. Before anyone says I'm crazy, my local dyno is not a loaded type dyno. This is why my numbers will seem high. She made a best of 429hp/433ftlbs torque. This was standard correction on a Dynojet dyno. I will be having the car tuned on a loaded dyno soon. Hoping for 390ish once tuned. Car feels great the way it is. Just want it at its real potential.



Know that I have given you guys an update, what does everyone like for swaybars outside of the whiteline stuff?