Serious Tuning Help Needed (600+ whp 2.3L Whipple w/ meth)

[HellsBells]

Are you talking about 0 degrees in the timing tables in the tune or 0 degrees added/removed from the handheld from 0-4000rpm? I want to make sure I am following you correctly. If you were running 0 degrees in the timing tables, that is WAY LOW as has already been said.

I need to pull up my tune file which I can't do right now but I remember the spark timing table (Borderline Knock I believe) was initially set to 0 at low load/low RPM. So what you guys are saying is there should be no 0's anywhere in the spark timing?

I never change the timing on the handheld.

Poor response especially when drag racing when I get off and back on the throttle, gas mileage, difference in the tone and smoothness of the engine overall especially part throttle, when I would start the engine I would have to hold my foot lightly on the throttle until I built some heat in the cylinders and I'm sure there were a few other things that I can't remember right now.

Since putting the 60's back in I can just simply turn the key and the car will start and idle beautifully now, it is smoother, just feels better overall.

I've read the 80lbs can be weird but nothing about mine seems to suggest they are no good--the fuel delivery seems fine, this is gotta be all tune related.

I wonder if when your car was tuned, it used the original injector specs that FRPP released. I fought with it for several WEEKS on the dyno because the injector values that were released were flat out wrong. Once they revised them, things smoothed out nicely.

I think you're right on the money. I specifically remember there is a FRPP 80lbs injector table marked "v2"--which is the one Ford told me to use.

 

[dysan]

I wonder if when your car was tuned, it used the original injector specs that FRPP released. I fought with it for several WEEKS on the dyno because the injector values that were released were flat out wrong. Once they revised them, things smoothed out nicely.

Lito has his own tweaks for injectors and doesn't use the out of the box values for both the 60 and 80 injectors.

 

[AutoXRacer]

For now, I am looking for someone who has made 600+ with a whipple 2.3 on a 3v....hoping they can help me out, or I could buy a tune file off of them (wishful thinking? lol).

I made 650HP/620TQ with my 302E and 2.3L TVS... Does that count?
Timing is at 14 degrees and at that time 18 PSI (20 peak) on 91 octane.
Since then, we have detuned it for safety, still 14 degrees, but 14-16 PSI, and 91 octane; makes 595HP/578TQ.

 

[HellsBells]

I made 650HP/620TQ with my 302E and 2.3L TVS... Does that count?
Timing is at 14 degrees and at that time 18 PSI (20 peak) on 91 octane.
Since then, we have detuned it for safety, still 14 degrees, but 14-16 PSI, and 91 octane; makes 595HP/578TQ.

Yes! Oh man, if only I could take a quick peek at your tune file. Lito tuned your car, correct? I fired him and email to see if he would be willing to do mine or help me out or something.

Would you mind PM'ing me or listing your mods down to the plugs/coils/etc?

 

[AutoXRacer]

Yes! Oh man, if only I could take a quick peek at your tune file. Lito tuned your car, correct? I fired him and email to see if he would be willing to do mine or help me out or something.

Would you mind PM'ing me or listing your mods down to the plugs/coils/etc?

-JDM 302E Stroker short block (5.0L)
-FRPP Stage 1 heads with stock valves
-Competition Cams 127300, PAC 3V springs, and Comp Cams Limiters (limits VCT to 20 degrees instead of 60 degrees OEM)
-GT500 oil pump with billet gears
-ROUSH TVS dual belt FEADs with VMP 76mm/3" pulley; 14-16 PSI.
-VMP TVS elbow with port matched TVS
-FRPP 123mm MAF housing
-FRPP GT40 air tube
-FRPP Super Cobra Jet throttle body - mono blade
-FRPP 80lb injectors
-GT500 Fuel Pump
-VMP Tuning Voltage Booster
-Kooks 1-3/4" headers with 3.0 to 2.5" catted H-pipe
-NGK Iridium 12mm plugs (gapped to 0.024" due to spark blowout)
-FRPP Coils...they are basically stock OEM coils. (I have a set of SOS coils coming that I will give a try; they claim 40K volts. Twice that of OEM rating)

Does this work?

Lito is the man...he will tune whatever you create... lol

 

[HellsBells]

Thanks man, that helps a ton. I feel much better with 18-20 degrees now if we're both running 91 and I'm injecting methanol (I'm assuming you aren't).

I'm wondering if using an aftermarket TB will make tuning easier. Does anyone have one to recommend that works well with the whipple inlet? I've only heard horror stories about driveability with the aftermarket TBs.

 

[BruceH]

I am on E85 as well but I may have just had a poor batch of injectors...that's quite possible.

I wonder if yours were frpp or some of the sd floating around ebay? I've had a set of flow matched 80's that worked great. I also had a set of what I think were factory rejects off of ebay that gave me fits. Went back to flow matched but this time bosch that are rated at 95lbs 3bar and 127lbs at 4 bar. They work great. Even at idle and low engine loads with gasoline.

 

[BruceH]

Thanks man, that helps a ton. I feel much better with 18-20 degrees now if we're both running 91 and I'm injecting methanol (I'm assuming you aren't).

I'm wondering if using an aftermarket TB will make tuning easier. Does anyone have one to recommend that works well with the whipple inlet? I've only heard horror stories about driveability with the aftermarket TBs.

The frpp 62mm is the only one that will fit a Whipple. SCT has a great file for it.

 

[AutoXRacer]

Thanks man, that helps a ton. I feel much better with 18-20 degrees now if we're both running 91 and I'm injecting methanol (I'm assuming you aren't).

I'm wondering if using an aftermarket TB will make tuning easier. Does anyone have one to recommend that works well with the whipple inlet? I've only heard horror stories about driveability with the aftermarket TBs.

Nope, I am not injecting methanol; thought about it though...
I am holding out on E85...hopefully someday it will be readily available out here. lol

I know with my Super Cobra Jet TB, it has given Lito and JDM challenges to get it tuned. Its so big that I had drive-ability issues. Lito got it sorted out. I still have a slight issue at 8-10MPH where my idle RPMs increase and wander a little.

 

[HellsBells]

The frpp 62mm is the only one that will fit a Whipple. SCT has a great file for it.

This one, yes? Would it be worth the money in your opinion Bruce? And does a less restrictive intake put more or less stress on the motor internals?
http://www.americanmuscle.com/frpp-62mm-throttlebody-0510gt.html

Nope, I am not injecting methanol; thought about it though...
I am holding out on E85...hopefully someday it will be readily available out here. lol

I know with my Super Cobra Jet TB, it has given Lito and JDM challenges to get it tuned. Its so big that I had drive-ability issues. Lito got it sorted out. I still have a slight issue at 8-10MPH where my idle RPMs increase and wander a little.

Ah good to know, I know the CJ TB's are notorious for driveability. I never considered E85 because it's not available near me either...maybe one day!

A bit off topic but, E85 is 100% detonation proof???

 

[AutoXRacer]

A bit off topic but, E85 is 100% detonation proof???

From what I hear/told its basically race fuel; 110 octane.
Max out timing and boost!!!!

Bruce is the expert...he runs it as his primary fuel.

 

[BruceH]

This one, yes? Would it be worth the money in your opinion Bruce? And does a less restrictive intake put more or less stress on the motor internals?
http://www.americanmuscle.com/frpp-62mm-throttlebody-0510gt.html



Ah good to know, I know the CJ TB's are notorious for driveability. I never considered E85 because it's not available near me either...maybe one day!

A bit off topic but, E85 is 100% detonation proof???

That's the one I had with a Whipple. It helped. Like I previously mentioned IIRC it made a difference of over 20 in the averages. The inlet elbow will still be your biggest restriction. Anything over 16-17psi is diminishing returns. JPC makes a bigger rear intake. The first versions had fitment issues but that was a few years ago. Lito has experimented with the JPC/Whipple inlet.

I haven't been able to get E85 to detonate. I've ran 23 degrees of spark with 15psi and nothing. I'm not an expert but I will share my experiences.

 

[HellsBells]

I looked into the JPC elbow a while back but it's out of my budget. If I want to max this thing out, I'd ditch the blower and grab a turbo or centri. I didn't realize the FRPP TB was $600 though! That's insane!

 

[dysan]

I wonder if yours were frpp or some of the sd floating around ebay? I've had a set of flow matched 80's that worked great. I also had a set of what I think were factory rejects off of ebay that gave me fits. Went back to flow matched but this time bosch that are rated at 95lbs 3bar and 127lbs at 4 bar. They work great. Even at idle and low engine loads with gasoline.

Mine were the FRPP ones which I purchased from American Muscle.

 

[HellsBells]

Decided to rule out everything and get it right once and for all.

Plans:
-ID1000 Injectors
-Remove methanol injection

 

[S197gt07]

Decided to rule out everything and get it right once and for all.

Plans:
-ID1000 Injectors
-Remove methanol injection

:O

 

[esp3500]

I know this is an old thread, but I am going through the same thing with similar set up. I am ,making 575hp on a dj and just over 500 on mustang dyno at 16 psi.

I was at 17 deg timing, but I am going back to the dyno with my water/meth set up and 24 deg timing. I am only 8.6 to 1 cr. It feels a lot better on the drag strip, and even with the 90 deg days here in NC it is pulling better numbers.
I still have my knock sensors and no knock is showing.

The KB website says this engine likes 25 deg timing and they just add octane as they add boost. I figure the water/meth gives me the octane and my cr of 8.6-1 I am going to try running this with my 16psi.

 

[BruceH]

I know this is an old thread, but I am going through the same thing with similar set up. I am ,making 575hp on a dj and just over 500 on mustang dyno at 16 psi.

I was at 17 deg timing, but I am going back to the dyno with my water/meth set up and 24 deg timing. I am only 8.6 to 1 cr. It feels a lot better on the drag strip, and even with the 90 deg days here in NC it is pulling better numbers.
I still have my knock sensors and no knock is showing.

The KB website says this engine likes 25 deg timing and they just add octane as they add boost. I figure the water/meth gives me the octane and my cr of 8.6-1 I am going to try running this with my 16psi.

KB claims a lot of things and some of them need to be taken with a bag of salt. I'd sneak up on the timing at 2 degree increases. 19, 21, 23, etc. I doubt you will see any gains over 23 degrees.

Post up your results, it will be good data for the forum.

 

[Department Of Boost]

I'm wondering if using an aftermarket TB will make tuning easier. Does anyone have one to recommend that works well with the whipple inlet? I've only heard horror stories about driveability with the aftermarket TBs.

The frpp 62mm is the only one that will fit a Whipple. SCT has a great file for it.

We have a GT500 bolt pattern L&M 72mm TB on my friends 2.3L Whipple. It took some grinding/cutting/porting/drilling but was no big deal. It was a HUGE gain up top, HUGE.

Drivability is like stock.

I run a 72mm L&M too (bigger blower) but on a 4.6L 3v and the drivability is fantastic.