Strain Gauges On STB?

Sleeper_08

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I was thinking about the debate over whether or not the front STB brace is worth it and then was wondering if anyone has actually instrumented one?

It has been a long time since I played with strain gauges at university but could they be used to determine once and for all if the STB actually does anything other than look good and add weight in a bad place?
 

Philostang

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I think someone once proposed a less sophisticated way to tell if they're doing much of anything. You could take your existing bar and unbolt one end of it. Mark the area around where it mounts (or in the case of Roush-style bars, pack in some playdoh while at rest), then go drive. When you come in you should be able to see witness marks for any movement.

Just a thought.

Best,
-j
 

Pony DNA

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I think someone once proposed a less sophisticated way to tell if they're doing much of anything. You could take your existing bar and unbolt one end of it. Mark the area around where it mounts (or in the case of Roush-style bars, pack in some playdoh while at rest), then go drive. When you come in you should be able to see witness marks for any movement.

Just a thought.

Best,
-j


You don't need no stinking strain gauges! I posted the modeling clay method 5 years ago. I got the idea from Carroll Smith who I think stole it from Dan Gurney. No, on a street driven car with street spring rates (under 400lbs/in) on street tires (up to 10 wide wheels) it makes no difference.

HTH!
 

Sleeper_08

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You don't need no stinking strain gauges! I posted the modeling clay method 5 years ago. I got the idea from Carroll Smith who I think stole it from Dan Gurney. No, on a street driven car with street spring rates (under 400lbs/in) on street tires (up to 10 wide wheels) it makes no difference.

HTH!

But what about on a race track with stiffer springs pulling 1 or better?
 

Pony DNA

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But what about on a race track with stiffer springs pulling 1 or better?


Sure, with racing slicks and race rate springs (600lb/in+) I would tell you to use both an upper and lower stress bar and if possible triangulate them to the structural firewall. But for anything less why bother, spend the money where it counts lighter wheels, sticky tires, at least single adjustable dampers, 2-piece rotors, spindle mounted brake ducts etc.
 

Rubrignitz

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I installed a cheaper one ($60) just to see for myself. I'm sure my car will do 1g but not often ;). I saw zero improvement, nada, nothing from the STB. For that matter, I also installed the steeda control arm bushing kit on my car last night. MAYBE a bit stiffer steering, MAYBE. If you look at how they install on the CA's, there's only about 1/4'' of space they mount into pushed up against the hydra bushing. After seeing how they mount I can't see how they would have any effect. And I used the harder (black) durometer bushing.
 

Pony DNA

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I installed a cheaper one ($60) just to see for myself. I'm sure my car will do 1g but not often ;). I saw zero improvement, nada, nothing from the STB. For that matter, I also installed the steeda control arm bushing kit on my car last night. MAYBE a bit stiffer steering, MAYBE. If you look at how they install on the CA's, there's only about 1/4'' of space they mount into pushed up against the hydra bushing. After seeing how they mount I can't see how they would have any effect. And I used the harder (black) durometer bushing.


Which is exactly what Ive been saying for years as predicted by my simple modeling clay testing.

The Steeda control arm bushing kits work by constraining the OEM fluid bushing. Kind of the best of both worlds, improved control arm location under cornering loads while retaining the excellent isolation of the hydra bushing under normal driving and lighter loads on the lower control arm. The difference is subtle even with the harder poly bushing but if you had stiffer dampers, significantly higher rate springs (not just the so called "sport springs") and stickier tires you would notice the difference through your steering wheel.

HTH!
 

Rubrignitz

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Hmmm, maybe so. I may loosen the allen bolt and try to tap them a little deeper up against the hydra bushing with my rubber mallet for a tighter lock to the bushing housing. It would seem they would need the support of the bushing housing to work effectively and the way they sit now it's only about 1/4'' of housing support. Then again, I'll give myself a week or two to see if I can feel any other subtle differences in driving situations before messing with them again.
 

Pony DNA

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Warning long!

Hmmm, maybe so. I may loosen the allen bolt and try to tap them a little deeper up against the hydra bushing with my rubber mallet for a tighter lock to the bushing housing. It would seem they would need the support of the bushing housing to work effectively and the way they sit now it's only about 1/4'' of housing support. Then again, I'll give myself a week or two to see if I can feel any other subtle differences in driving situations before messing with them again.


When I first installed the Steeda front control arm bushing kit suspension wise I had the original 2005 five spoke funnel wheels and OEM Pirelli PZero Nero A/S tires, Tokico D-Specs front and rear, Eibach ProKit sport springs, Steeda G-Trac lower brace, Steeda adjustable LCAs and the original Steeda adjustable UCA both with poly bushings on both ends and the most excellent Steeda adjustable Panhard bar and matching H.D. PB brace. So when I first installed the Steeda front control arm bushing kit I used the red bushings and thought to myself that they didn't do anything. So I pulled out the red donuts and installed the black ones and like you thought I felt a slight improvement in steering precision. This was enough for me at the time as I did not want to ruin the car's decent street ride like I usually do.

But being the suspension whore that I am I soon decided that I needed more overall grip and in particular more front grip. So I bought a set of forged 18"x10" Roush wheels with 275/40x18 BFG KD tires all around. With the grip so much higher now the car was rolling much more than before and the once O.K. spring rates were way too low and the car now had developed a mild push.

So I installed a set of Steeda Race springs, Steeda HD adjustable camber plates in addition to a Steeda billet camber plate kit, Steeda 35mm front bar with Steeda adjustable comp/street links and original small Steeda 20.5mm rear anti-roll bar with billet links, Steeda front anti-roll bar mount brace to triangulate the front of the chassis and get the most out of the front bar. I also installed a Steeda bumpsteer correction kit, relocated the front control arms and the rear LCAs and upgraded my original Steeda adjustable UCA with Steeda's much improved longer competition/street UCA and UCA mount. This was a major improvement in handling balance and front grip was now amazingly good for a street car.

Some miles later I pulled out the D-Specs and Steeda Race springs and installed a set of Steeda coilovers with much higher spring rates than the Steeda Race springs they replaced, now we were cooking! I had also experimented with some other "sport" springs but the Steeda Race springs were the best for my purposes (hauling it through the canyons in and around Mulholland drive/highway) due to their better ride height and higher spring rate but I still needed more spring rate hence the coilovers.

About this time I was having issues with the rear axle due to the Steeda LCA bushing sleeves which are undersized and over time collapse (bending and making the LCA bolts loose) when properly torqued to full factory specs. So I machined some new bushing sleeves that were a bit larger O.D. as the O.E.M. inner LCA sleeves (HUGE) and drilled out a new set of Steeda poly bushings for a zero clearance fit. At this time I also took the opportunity to install a set of rod-ends on the axle side of the Steeda LCAs and what do you know, problem solved but with a bit more NVH than the all poly and skinny LCA bushing sleeves.

About this time the Saleen PJ Edition Boss 302 cars came out and I was lusting after the wheels which are very similar to the old Trans-Am wheels they used to use during the Tran-Am wars of the late 60's early '70's. So I found the company that supplied these wheels to Saleen and bought a couple of sets along with some nice new 19" rubber to go with them. But now the car was wearing staggered wheels and tires but I had set it up for a square wheel and tire configuration. I thought it was going to push which it did but after some careful tuning of spring rates and bar adjustments I had the car working nearly as well as with the square wheel/tire setup. The car still had a little bit of push but manageable.

Then one day I got to drive a Saleen PJ 302 in the canyons. At that point I had to have a Watts' link in my car! So I found someone who would sell a Saleen PJ Watt's link to me and I installed it one day out in my garage and all I can say here is WOW! With the slightly higher roll center of the PJ Watt's link the chassis was balanced nearly perfectly even with the staggered wheel tire setup. This is the way these cars should have come from the factory! Quiet, smooth and much better behaved with no weird rear axle jacking or different steering and handling feeling when cornering hard left or right in slow corners or fast! The only reason the car is a bit harsh now is the higher spring rates I currently have installed. I'm thinking about working up a dual spring setup once I get my E36 M3 project finished and out of the garage. The M3 has TCKline double adjustable coilovers setup using my own specs with a dual spring rate setup I am working on specifically worked out for the M3. I have to see how well the double spring system works before I try it on the Mustang but it should work just fine.

So here is where it gets interesting. I had a front ball joint that was starting to get a little bit loose so I bought a set of GT500 front control arms. I had wanted to install them when the GT500 came out for their much more heavy duty balljoints but also for the stiffer hydra bushings and now was the time as I had a long trip I had to drive. So I pulled out the S197 GT front lower control arms and installed the GT500 front lower control arms and did a quick garage floor camber and toe alignment and off I went. I later noticed that the car was not as sharp steering but thought it was just the alignment. So later I did a more careful alignment and found it was the same as before the lower control arm swap. Then I remembered that I needed to install the Steeda bushing kit and had a hard time getting them out of the old arms. But once installed using the black donuts I could feel them working after yet another alignment. So I know they work but it takes a lot of grip and well located control arms to feel the change in steering precision.

HTH!
 

Rubrignitz

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After a bit more driving I do notice a better 'on center' feel which means turn in should be better. Improved on center feel is what I was looking for as the overboosted power steering gives a looser feeling than what I'm used to in a performance car. It's still not where I would like it to be but not sure I'm ready to throw the checkbook at some tubular LCA's just yet...
 

Pony DNA

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After a bit more driving I do notice a better 'on center' feel which means turn in should be better. Improved on center feel is what I was looking for as the overboosted power steering gives a looser feeling than what I'm used to in a performance car. It's still not where I would like it to be but not sure I'm ready to throw the checkbook at some tubular LCA's just yet...


The whole tubular front control arm and subframe issue is IMO a major waste of money if you want to have a safe good handling street car that gets tracked once or twice a month during the season. Use that money on dampers, springs, anti-roll bars, wheels, tires, brakes in that order for a HPDE or open session lapping DD car. The stock stamped OEM front end is designed and tested to survive a crash and many many off road trips. None of the TUBULAR front ends are crash or street certified and there are reports of them breaking on the street.
 

Vapour Trails

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The whole tubular front control arm and subframe issue is IMO a major waste of money if you want to have a safe good handling street car that gets tracked once or twice a month during the season. Use that money on dampers, springs, anti-roll bars, wheels, tires, brakes in that order for a HPDE or open session lapping DD car. The stock stamped OEM front end is designed and tested to survive a crash and many many off road trips. None of the TUBULAR front ends are crash or street certified and there are reports of them breaking on the street.


+1

I wouldn't touch a tubular K-member or LCAs with a 10 foot pole.
 

Rubrignitz

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Kenny Brown makes some tubular CA's I would take a hard look at. I wouldn't touch BMR's with a 10 foot pole either. Maybe a whiteline antidive kit. I'm convinced the loose steering and front end float is CA/bushing related especially now after seeing some of it alleviated with the steeda bushing insert. Some REAL bushings instead of this band-aid approach.

There's a dead/disonnected feeling with this cars steering.
 
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Vapour Trails

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There's a dead/disonnected feeling with this cars steering.

I don't find that with my car. I really like the steering feel. How much pressure are you using with the NT05s? I use the same tire, exact size. My front suspension is very similar, but I'm using steeda HD mounts, sport springs, front steeda bar and d-specs.

I feel that I can sense what the front tires are doing through the wheel and that the steering response is sharp. One automotive journalist with Car & Driver said the the mustang had "the best steering in a NA car".
 
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kevinatfms

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i have a bmr k member but gt500 CA's and both work great for me
 

ClassJ

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I looked at it like for the cost of the lower and upper bar, it was not worth thinking about. Yes they add weight but it is really minimal and the upper bar looks cool. Is this the right way to look at it? Probably not, but it worked for my street car.

The lower bar was always something ford had on the verts. Then in 2007-2008 I think they added it to coupes as well. I have the steeda version but if Ford is adding a part to a car my feelings are that it is helping something. Car manufactures do not like adding a non-visual part that costs anything to tens of thousands of cars.

As far as on center feel. I find it ok. Much better than many other American offerings I have driven. But I will say that the German stuff still feels better steering feel wise.
 

Germeezy3

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In my opinion the early cars do not have very communicative steering, but for 2011 the GT and the GT500 definitely improved....but of course retrofitting an EPAS rack would be cost prohibitive.
 
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