Suggest recipe to make S197 = E46 M3

[ddavidv]

Why this topic? I'm beginning to shop for a 05-06 Mustang to realize a long desired dream after playing with Euro cars for years. As I do with every car purchase, I like to research the hell out of things far in advance of buying. That I'm buying a S197 GT is a foregone conclusion. The part I'm wanting to piece together now is what it will take to make it a track car on par with the E46 M3 BMW. Why this as the target? Two reasons: 1) I think the goal is easily achievable without spending a fortune, and 2) my brother-in-law has one.

I'm not worried about the horsepower; I'm more interested in what suspension and chassis bits would be needed to achieve a comparable on track dynamic. Springs, shocks, bars, tire/wheel combos, etc. Please no speculation; only real corner-carvers need apply. I'm looking for a predictable package and not something that will be knife-edge scary even if it is faster.

My background: I have a racing license and instruct HPDE's at some east coast tracks. I have been racing a E30 BMW but for a few reasons want to give that up and go in a different direction away from W2W. And if anyone is interested in doing a trade...

 

[NoTicket]

Any of the ford racing adjustable handling packs will put you on par with an M3. Not exactly a super high target.

18x10 SVE Drift wheels from late model restorations along with some Hankook RS3 and you should be set to wallop an M3.

If he is modded and running stickier tires you are going to be looking at something more aggressive.

 

[Whiskey11]

Why this topic? I'm beginning to shop for a 05-06 Mustang to realize a long desired dream after playing with Euro cars for years. As I do with every car purchase, I like to research the hell out of things far in advance of buying. That I'm buying a S197 GT is a foregone conclusion. The part I'm wanting to piece together now is what it will take to make it a track car on par with the E46 M3 BMW. Why this as the target? Two reasons: 1) I think the goal is easily achievable without spending a fortune, and 2) my brother-in-law has one.

I'm not worried about the horsepower; I'm more interested in what suspension and chassis bits would be needed to achieve a comparable on track dynamic. Springs, shocks, bars, tire/wheel combos, etc. Please no speculation; only real corner-carvers need apply. I'm looking for a predictable package and not something that will be knife-edge scary even if it is faster.

My background: I have a racing license and instruct HPDE's at some east coast tracks. I have been racing a E30 BMW but for a few reasons want to give that up and go in a different direction away from W2W. And if anyone is interested in doing a trade...

In order of what I personally think the car is lacking in:
-Wheels/Tires - Obvious to anyone with track experience, the stock 235's are ice skates relative to the car's weight...

-Dampers - The stock shocks/struts are AWFUL for basically everything.

-Rear Axle Location - Yes, it's a live axle and it will still "hop" over bumps, but the solution to the majority of that problem is quite simple, albeit slightly expensive. Basically the way the a PHB behaves forces the rear suspension to move in an arc laterally. The axle itself is about 250-300lbs of weight. I don't think I need to tell you what that weight moving laterally is going to do for rear grip and driver confidence! The solution is a watts link. Plenty of options out there from street car to race car in varying price ranges. The least expensive (Fays2) happens to have the most adjustment for rear roll center height and uses rod ends instead of bushings. When set up correctly it does not make any additional noise, at least mine hasn't. Barring a watts link, I would do everything in your power to remove any lateral deflection you can. IE: Rod ended PHB at least.

-Springs - More like lack thereof. For a 3500lb car the springs are ridiculously soft. Lots of brake dive, lots of squat, lots of body roll. Plenty of options here to fix this. Since dampers are coming off anyway and camber plates are recommended, coilovers are the easy ticket.

I ran, and for the most part still do run, that same basic setup. Here is what is on my car now:
-Ground Control Coilovers w/ 440lbs/in front springs, 200lbs/in rear springs
-Alignment: -3.0º camber, +7.0º Caster, -0.10º Toe (out))
-Strano 35mm front bar
-Strano 25mm rear bar
-Fays2 Watts Link
-Enkei PF01's in 18x9 at all four corners (class limited)
-Hankook RS3 in 265/40/18 (class limited)
-Cortex Racing Torque Arm
-Poly bushings in rear lower control arms

Frankly, the last two are fixes done because of class rules preventing me from doing them an easier way and you can basically ignore them for the "what I would do at a minimum". I would definitely recommend going wider for tires. These cars will fit some pretty good rubber under all four corners with relative ease. You'd be wise to take advantage of that. I'd suggest at a minimum 285's on an 18x10 wheel or wider.

Once that is done, the rest of the mods are more or less geometry restoration. You'll lose some forward bite from lowering the car, LCA relocation brackets will restore some of that. With that restoration you'll probably see wheel hop return, so a new upper control arm out back and both lower control arms. I don't really consider these "necessary" in the sense as it's a major issue that I'd fix ASAP, but it certainly is something to keep in mind. The rear upper control arm takes care of all the wheel hop and pinion angle changes. With big drops like with coilovers, the pinion angle change is a big deal... too low and you'll put a lot of wear on the pinion bearings... Front roll center also takes a dive thanks to the strut geometry but that is a lesser issue than the forward bite drop.

That is all suspension wise. Seats, harness and harness bar or roll bar would be a great start to improve driver confidence and take some weight out of the car.

If you have any questions, this is the place to ask them. Lots of folks with experience here!

Someone, a familiar face, would be the Vorshlag crew, Terry and Jason are both on here (Fair and modernbeat respectively) who have obviously got experience with both the E46 and S197 chassis! They might be able to tell you where they'd improve more specifically.

 

[black2008gt]

If your going for the m3 why not hold out for a 5.0? Car and driver had them almost identical in every test.

 

[csamsh]

Hmm....well after being significantly tree'd by Whiskey...I was going to give a similar response.

I'll list my "step change" parts- things I did to the car that gave it a "whole new car" feeling, and what I was previously using.

I won't list brakes, wheels and tires, because it seems that you probably know about brakes, wheels and tires.

A brief summary of my wheel/tire escapades- I have used 9", 10", and 11" wide wheels, and tires of 255 (P-Zero), 275 (Mich. PSS and BFG R1), 285 (Hankook RS3), 295 (BFG Rival), and 315 (Kumho V710). Bigger is better. My "favorite" wheel/tire combo so far is the 295/35/18 BFG Rivals on 18x11 Forgestars. I have not had the chance to track or autox this setup yet...but thrashing it on the street, it feels very promising, very forgiving/predictable, and quite fast for a street tire. I have come to the conclusion that I have more fun on street tires. The car's limits get very high on race tires, which is cool if I'm competing, but I'm mostly in it for fun.

Brakes- I use Carbotech AX6 for street/autox, and Carbotech XP16(f)/XP12 (r) for track. fronts are ducted, brakes are Brembos (4-piston, 14" rotor), fluid is Motul RBF600, and lines are Vorshlag stainless. Works great.

Alright- brake/tire diatribe over- parts impact in order of "biggest change"

-Cobra Suzuka seat- tracking/autox'ing a car with a stock seat vs. a racing seat makes you wonder why you bothered with the stock seat at all. I expect you already know this, but, coming from European cars, you may not be prepared for the epic shittiness that is the stock S197 chair. After going to the new seat, I can tune my shocks more effectively, adjust tire pressures effectively, feel the beginnings of over/under steer sooner and more accurately, etc.

-AST 4150 dampers, 550# front, 250# rear springs, Vorshlag caster/camber plates- I came from Koni Yellows with Eibachs and GT500 strut mounts. I made my money back on my set of Konis and traded up to monotube coilovers. Pretty much everything dynamic about the car got better- transitions became much more controllable, the car handled imperfections in surface much better, and I was able to tune out nearly all of the corner-exit understeer the car previously had. Added bonus- the ride now actually feels quite German, and is at least 4x better than stock.

-Torsen T2R differential- I came from a (dead) stock T-Lok posi diff, which I believe is ubiquitous to all GT's other than the 13-14 track pack cars. The car rotates in corners much more readily, and power application out of corners is much more even. At $750, I consider it a steal. I felt more of a difference in autox with this part than I did on track.

I've done some other minor-ish things too- control arms, panhard bar, swaybars, shifter, etc. They don't really change the car's performance, but they let you tune, correct geometries, etc. I have not done a Watt's link...kind of a combo of not being in love with anything on the market and not wanting to pay $1k for something I don't love.

 

[SoundGuyDave]

Start with a 5.0 car, you'll need the power to keep up with the M3.

Add: TIRES!!!!! This will make the biggest impact, and if you know what your buddy is running, run at LEAST the same "grade" of rubber or better. 275/35-18 on a 9.5" wheel (35-45mm offset) works great, but of course, a larger contact patch is always better. 11" wheels will fit under the car (315mm rubber), however you'll need different offsets front and rear to clear the sheetmetal.

Dampers: This is one place the stock M3 excells! Plan on going to a mid- to high-grade coilover setup (AST, Moton, Sachs, MCS, et al) with spring rates in the 350-550 range up front, and 250-400 in the rear.

Swaybars: Select to suit, based on your driving impressions with the above.

Brakes: If the car you grab doesn't have them, immediately go to 4-pot Brembo take-offs. Cheap, and plenty of stopping power. Duct the fronts (fulltiltboogieracing.com for the spindle end, FRPP for the facia end, done), and run an aggressive race pad (Hawk DTC-60 or DTC70F/60R setup), and you'll be in great shape in the whoa department.

Suspension: Honestly, not a lot that NEEDS to be done. As was mentioned, a rod-ended Panhard bar is a good idea, but you can be successful with a stock piece. I would lean towards the rod-ends.

CAI/TUNE: Just do it. The tune will let you get the throttle mapping all dialed in, and that's the most important thing. The response on the DBW setup is a bit off from the factory, and if you're used to throttle-steering, you'll appreciate a much more linear response. The CAI will net you a small amount of horsepower, but it's the tune that really wakes up the car.

Honestly, that's about it. Yes, seats will make the drive a lot more fun, but if you get a car with the factory Recaros (Track Pack), you'll have enough to start with.

Do the above, and make sure there's a cutout in the bottom of the seat for a proper sized ball-sack, and you'll beat the piss out of a stock-ish M3.

 

[csamsh]

Do the above, and make sure there's a cutout in the bottom of the seat for a proper sized ball-sack, and you'll beat the piss out of a stock-ish M3.

Where exactly do I buy this ball-sack?

 

[2013MustangGT]

I had the stock Recaros and I would slide around on the seat. I switch them out for Cobra seats and never looked back. Also, there isn't a cut out in the stock Recaro seats so a 6 point harness doesn't work that great with them.

 

[SoundGuyDave]

Where exactly do I buy this ball-sack?

Not available on the web, unfortunately, however it is available at the track, but only if you learn to use the right foot, and essentially ignore mortality!

On a serious note, I don't care WHAT you do to the S197 chassis, if the guy driving the M3 is named Randy Pobst or Boris Said, brother, you ain't got a chance... However, given two "average" track enthusiasts, with those two cars, it'll come down to the guy that commit to the corner with more authority that will with the lap-time competition. If you leave a bunch on the table (you know, for the wife and kids' sake), and the other guy waits until he sees Elvis before getting on the brakes, you already lost.

For a solid driving target, if you can nail your braking zones, hit your turn-in and apex points perfectly, and gas it hard enough through the corner to just barely drop the outside rear tire onto the track-out berm, every corner, every lap, you'll be getting it done.

 

[jayel579]

My setup: KW Clubsports, Strano front and rear sways, Kooks LT headers, ATC Twin disc Clutch with lightened fly wheel, 275-40R17 BFG R1 tires, Hawk DTC-60 pads.... track setup E46 M3's don't catch me but then I am not catching them either. They definitely have the power advantage over our cars on the straights but I hope to solve that issue this season.

I primarily run with BMWCCA so I see them often on the track.

 

[sheizasosay]

Put an SLA on the front of the S197, good coilovers, Torsen T2R, tires and then S197>E46.

 

[Whiskey11]

Start with a 5.0 car, you'll need the power to keep up with the M3.

Why? It's an E46, not an E92 as seen at Willow Springs piloted by Randy Pobst for Motortrend.

The US Model has 338 HP, 262lb*ft of torque
curbweight: 3415lbs
0-60 time: 4.8s

Contrast that to the 3V:
300HP/320lb*ft of torque
curbweight: 3475lbs
0-60 time: 5.0s

It isn't going to walk away from a 3V on the straights. That 0-60 time was with 3.31's, 3.55's were an option and would help that number out a lot. With a decent set of tires and well thought out suspension it wouldn't necessarily walk away in the corners either. Would I recommend getting more power for track duty? Yeah, definitely as money allows, a CAI, exhaust and cams (if he wants them) would push the car into that 350 RWHP/RWTRQ range which would definitely allow him to walk away on the straights. It's going to take a fair bit more cash to get that E46 higher in power.

One thing I forgot to add was the Brakes. This should be obvious but at a minimum you will want the 4 piston Brembo's from the GT500/2011+ Brembo Package cars. Don't even try and make the floating calipers work, it will end miserably. Any other high quality 14" or more rotor fixed caliper packages will work too (StopTech, Wilwood, etc) with good brake ducting is a must.

One thing I think would be fun to see is a stock 5.0L with Track pack go up against an E46. I'm willing to bet you could out power the E46 enough in the straighter sections to still beat up on him. It wont be fun to drive at the limit, nor would anyone call it a great handling car, but it sure is fast!

 

[jayel579]

Why? It's an E46, not an E92 as seen at Willow Springs piloted by Randy Pobst for Motortrend.

You haven't chased one on the track yet....

 

[Whiskey11]

You haven't chased one on the track yet....

I've chased more than my fair share on an autocross course... they certainly aren't easy there, even in non-M form.

 

[Vorshlag-Fair]

Lots of great advice in this thread already, but I'll add what little I can. Mostly anecdotal Mustang vs E46 M3 Time Trial competition stuff.

Know this: I came from a BMW competition background and was reluctant to jump into the S197. I waited until these cars made over 400 hp (5.0 Coyote) and could have factory installed 14" Brembos before I could no longer resist. So hard to give up that 100-120 hp bump over tghe 4.6 3V for a road course car.

I race against a number of E46 M3s in NASA, and look at times from them in both the TTB and TT3 classes. That is a great chassis to start with, but for real track abuse and even some time trial competition that chassis has the same basic flaws as the '11-14 GT.

For both the E46 M3 and the S197 - the OEM dampers are crap, springs too soft, not enough negative camber, too much pitch/roll/dive/heave, stock fluid and brake pads need to be upgraded, OEM seat is lacking, it will pick up a lot from a cold air intake, wheels/tires are massively undersized, etc.

Unique to the BMW includes: the driveline bushings are SUPER soft, the driveshaft "guibo" fails, the rear trunk floor fails at the subframe mounts, the exhaust is VERY heavy and restrictive, and most of the M3s come with sunroofs, making it difficult to fit with a helmet on in the stock seats if you are 6' or taller. The VANOS units and the cooling system are also problematic.

The E46 M3 is a great car, and we service and prep a lot of these. But the 5.0 S197 can be faster, and the extra horsepower is a big part of that. But you need to upgrade all sorts of suspension bits, and of course the wheels and TIRES to keep up or beat them...

 

[Sky Render]

Any of the ford racing adjustable handling packs will put you on par with an M3. Not exactly a super high target.

18x10 SVE Drift wheels from late model restorations along with some Hankook RS3 and you should be set to wallop an M3.

If he is modded and running stickier tires you are going to be looking at something more aggressive.

This is the worst advice ever. Ford Racing handling packs are shit, and SVE Drifts are heavy, though the price is right.

Sent from my toilet using Tapatalk

 

[SoundGuyDave]

Whiskey: You got it in one... I was thinking of the current-gen M3, not the E46. My appologies. I'll still opt for a 5.0 over a 4.6, unless a proper amount of weight reduction has been done to the Mustang to keep it on a par with the M3. And Jayel's right, the M3 is NO SLOUCH even in pretty much stock-ish form on a road course. Terry's comments about the OE dampers being crap may well be right compared to Moton, but compared to the OE Ford dampers? They're light-years better!

 

[NoTicket]

This is the worst advice ever. Ford Racing handling packs are shit, and SVE Drifts are heavy, though the price is right.

Sent from my toilet using Tapatalk

They will be good enough to compete with a stock e46 M3. Like I said, if the M3 is modified it will need more to compete with it.

The question was not "what is the best suspension I can buy for my car."

Edit: Also, the 18x10 SVE Drifts are 24lbs a piece, which is only 4 lbs more than the 18x9.5 Enkei PF-01. I really don't think they are that heavy. Saving 16lbs of rotational mass is nice, but the wheels are $800 cheaper.

 

[irishpwr46]

reading this makes me want to upgrade my suspension all over again

 

[robz]

Why this topic? I'm beginning to shop for a 05-06 Mustang to realize a long desired dream after playing with Euro cars for years. As I do with every car purchase, I like to research the hell out of things far in advance of buying. That I'm buying a S197 GT is a foregone conclusion. The part I'm wanting to piece together now is what it will take to make it a track car on par with the E46 M3 BMW. Why this as the target? Two reasons: 1) I think the goal is easily achievable without spending a fortune, and 2) my brother-in-law has one.

I'm not worried about the horsepower; I'm more interested in what suspension and chassis bits would be needed to achieve a comparable on track dynamic. Springs, shocks, bars, tire/wheel combos, etc. Please no speculation; only real corner-carvers need apply. I'm looking for a predictable package and not something that will be knife-edge scary even if it is faster.

My background: I have a racing license and instruct HPDE's at some east coast tracks. I have been racing a E30 BMW but for a few reasons want to give that up and go in a different direction away from W2W. And if anyone is interested in doing a trade...

Spend a few more pennies and get a 2011+ \thread
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uOwSPccbzl4