tired of being slow

[08stang]

yes its another FNG yes i realize there is a thread similar to this one up already however im not a idiot, dont think i can make 375hp on a couple thousand bucks and am not going to say fuck it CAI and re flash will do at the end of the day. im a big believer in thorough planning with a clear objective in site so ill state that now.

curently 08 GT M/T with stock 3.55s 18'' rims with 235 45's on all 4 corners

what i want the car to do. pull a full G in the turns needs to be able to out run a stock honda s2000 on a road course, and at the same time post a 12.5 or better in the 1/4 witch corect me if im wrong means i should be shooting for roughly 400hp to the wheels something id like to achieve N/A.

any set up sujestions are greatly apreaciated wheel and tire combos, proven N/A motor builds, suspension set ups, also would like to hear from anyone running supercharger or turbo set ups as i have not completly ruled out forced induction.

 

[SoundGuyDave]

As far as the 1G thing goes, a good set of STIFF springs and good dampers, along with shaved R-comps on lightweight wheels will get you there, or at least mighty close. 12.5x will take weight reduction, taller gears, drag radials, and full bolt-ons. 400 to the wheels ain't going to be cheap (cams, massaged heads, fuel pumps plus the bolt-ons), and may be more expensive than just dropping on a centri blower.

 

[08stang]

As far as the 1G thing goes, a good set of STIFF springs and good dampers, along with shaved R-comps on lightweight wheels will get you there, or at least mighty close. 12.5x will take weight reduction, taller gears, drag radials, and full bolt-ons. 400 to the wheels ain't going to be cheap (cams, massaged heads, fuel pumps plus the bolt-ons), and may be more expensive than just dropping on a centri blower.

i have come to terms with the fact that going the N/A rout to 400 hp is going to be more expensive than just slapping a supercharger on and im willing to pay the extra cash that goes with it

as far as rim and tires go i am looking at some 18 by 9.5 and thinking of running 275 40's on all 4 corners can i go wider up front? or if i do am i going to have problems?

as far as what it takes to get to 400 hp N/A i was hoping to find some one that has done it or at least come close to kinda get me on track as far as what to expect im aware its going to take full bolt on, cams, head work ect. i guess im more looking for more specific details like what brand part# cams people have ran and anyone had luck with machined heads if so where did they get them..... should have clarified that im looking for more info than what i can get out of a years worth of mustang magizines interested in seeing what people have actualy done thanks.

 

[Narsh]

There are a few cars on here that are close to or over 400 to the wheels N/A. It is going to require more money to go that route than to bolt on a supercharger/turbo/n20. Still either way you go is totally up to you - both ways are respectable.

Handling wise - springs, upper/lower control arms, panhard bar, sway bars, bump steer kit, strut tower brace should get you what you want.

Here is what I have done:

4.10 Gears
Steeda Tri-ax
Corsa Extreme Exhaust
SLP LongTubes
SLP Catted X
Steed U/D Pulleys
Steeda Charge Motion Plates
Steeda CAI w/90mm MAF
NX Plate kit w/ 125 shot
Spydershaft 1pc Driveshaft
Steeda Sport Springs
Steed Adj Upper Control Arm
Front Tower Strut Bar
NX Plate Kit 125 shot
19x9/19x10 Saleen Heritage wheels

Power is rated at: 327/332 to the wheels N/A and 430/512 to the wheels on the spray.

 

[SoundGuyDave]

as far as rim and tires go i am looking at some 18 by 9.5 and thinking of running 275 40's on all 4 corners can i go wider up front? or if i do am i going to have problems?

Unless you're going to do a BBK, or X5 balljoints, I would think about 17" wheels rather than 18". The smaller diameter will give you a slight effective gearing increase, and the rotating mass is considerably lower. Also they'll be lighter, and as this is unsprung mass, it counts for roughly 10x what you do above the springs for weight reduction. If you have the coin, Fiske, if you have some coin, BBS, 5zigen, Enkei, if you have little coin, Ford Racing R58 or Cobra R wheels. A 9.5" width is perfect for the 275 tires, and I wouldn't go any wider than that, or you'll start getting odd sidewall deformation under load. With 275 on all four corners, you'll have a bunch of rubber down, especially if it's sticky stuff; BF Goodrich R1, Hoosier A6/R6, or the like! Offsets between +36 and +50 will work well.

I can't comment on cams or heads, but remember that if you're looking for a road-course killer, you need to focus more on area under the curve and torque than you do on peak horsepower. I'll give up 15-20HP any day of the week, if I can have a power band that runs from 3000 all the way up to 7800! If it means fewer downshifts or (especially!) upshifts, you'll be quicker than the car that needs to keep between 4500-6500. And remember, torque is what gives you that grunt out of the corner. Horsepower is all about top-end speed. Also, don't go too steep on the gears, or you'll find yourself in the overdrive gears too often for good acceleration. 3.73 seems about perfect for me, I'm in third most of the time, but on long straights, I can almost max out fourth. That's about 145MPH with a 3.73, but would be 132 or so with a 4.10.

Assuming the stock TR3650 trans, with a 3.73 gear and 275/40-17 tires, and using a powerband of 3500-6500RPM, that gives you a usable speed range from 54-100MPH, which is the meat and potatoes for most short-to medium sized road courses, and with 4th coming in strong at around 70MPH or so, is plenty versitile. Also, with a peak of around 400HP, the extra pull you get from a 4.10 gear will probably be worthless, since you'll be pedalling the car anyway, even with a 3.73.

 

[08stang]

Unless you're going to do a BBK, or X5 balljoints, I would think about 17" wheels rather than 18". The smaller diameter will give you a slight effective gearing increase, and the rotating mass is considerably lower. Also they'll be lighter, and as this is unsprung mass, it counts for roughly 10x what you do above the springs for weight reduction. If you have the coin, Fiske, if you have some coin, BBS, 5zigen, Enkei, if you have little coin, Ford Racing R58 or Cobra R wheels. A 9.5" width is perfect for the 275 tires, and I wouldn't go any wider than that, or you'll start getting odd sidewall deformation under load. With 275 on all four corners, you'll have a bunch of rubber down, especially if it's sticky stuff; BF Goodrich R1, Hoosier A6/R6, or the like! Offsets between +36 and +50 will work well.

I can't comment on cams or heads, but remember that if you're looking for a road-course killer, you need to focus more on area under the curve and torque than you do on peak horsepower. I'll give up 15-20HP any day of the week, if I can have a power band that runs from 3000 all the way up to 7800! If it means fewer downshifts or (especially!) upshifts, you'll be quicker than the car that needs to keep between 4500-6500. And remember, torque is what gives you that grunt out of the corner. Horsepower is all about top-end speed. Also, don't go too steep on the gears, or you'll find yourself in the overdrive gears too often for good acceleration. 3.73 seems about perfect for me, I'm in third most of the time, but on long straights, I can almost max out fourth. That's about 145MPH with a 3.73, but would be 132 or so with a 4.10.

Assuming the stock TR3650 trans, with a 3.73 gear and 275/40-17 tires, and using a powerband of 3500-6500RPM, that gives you a usable speed range from 54-100MPH, which is the meat and potatoes for most short-to medium sized road courses, and with 4th coming in strong at around 70MPH or so, is plenty versitile. Also, with a peak of around 400HP, the extra pull you get from a 4.10 gear will probably be worthless, since you'll be pedalling the car anyway, even with a 3.73.

i understand the importance of cutting weight where it counts the most "rotating mass" the reason i say 18's is to leave the option of a big break kit open in the future for now its hawk pads and break ducting to slow her down.the wheels im looking at right now are actually Steeda Pentar's - 18" x 9.5 but not sure cant find out how much the actualy weigh... i should clarify that the 12.5 or better 1/4 is the end goal im just guessing as to it should take around 400 hp if i can run 12.5 with 370hp id be happy.

thanks for the info on gearing i think you just sold me on 3.73's i have been debating between that and 4.10's but didnt really know what id get out of them you basically confirmed my thoughts that 4.10's will be to short for what i want.

 

[08stang]

There are a few cars on here that are close to or over 400 to the wheels N/A. It is going to require more money to go that route than to bolt on a supercharger/turbo/n20. Still either way you go is totally up to you - both ways are respectable.

Handling wise - springs, upper/lower control arms, panhard bar, sway bars, bump steer kit, strut tower brace should get you what you want.

Here is what I have done:

4.10 Gears
Steeda Tri-ax
Corsa Extreme Exhaust
SLP LongTubes
SLP Catted X
Steed U/D Pulleys
Steeda Charge Motion Plates
Steeda CAI w/90mm MAF
NX Plate kit w/ 125 shot
Spydershaft 1pc Driveshaft
Steeda Sport Springs
Steed Adj Upper Control Arm
Front Tower Strut Bar
NX Plate Kit 125 shot
19x9/19x10 Saleen Heritage wheels

Power is rated at: 327/332 to the wheels N/A and 430/512 to the wheels on the spray.

i got to admit that n20 was a tempting way to go but i kept coming back to the same basic thought of i don't want to lose a 100 hp because i emptied my bottle just something i don't want to have to worry about. however nice car and very respectable numbers.

 

[alloy6ix]

Weight reduction would be a great idea, follow Matt D's build here and take some ideas. As far as suspension, for running in road course and drag strip are two different set ups I'm sure you know, and both when done correctly will seriously help your times. I would say go nitrous so you don't have the added weight of blower/turbo, but still have the power when you need it at the strip. Getting a good NA or nitrous cam for it would work as well. you looking at Steeda suspension set-ups or Griggs racing set-ups? I know griggs has pulled off 1.5G's but with their full-on, balls to the wall set-up. you could look up stuff from them, see how that works out.

 

[08stang]

Weight reduction would be a great idea, follow Matt D's build here and take some ideas. As far as suspension, for running in road course and drag strip are two different set ups I'm sure you know, and both when done correctly will seriously help your times. I would say go nitrous so you don't have the added weight of blower/turbo, but still have the power when you need it at the strip. Getting a good NA or nitrous cam for it would work as well. you looking at Steeda suspension set-ups or Griggs racing set-ups? I know griggs has pulled off 1.5G's but with their full-on, balls to the wall set-up. you could look up stuff from them, see how that works out.

i have been looking at steeda, eibach, and whiteline never even really heard of griggs but will definitely check them out suspension set up is personaly my weekist link i know the goal is stiffer lower lighter reduice body role, and nose dive but as far as how and the best way im really kinda clueless... i cant even decide if i want to go with coilovers or not.

 

[SoundGuyDave]

Okay, I think we're dialing into a few things here...

Griggs makes KILLER suspensions, and they are priced accordingly. The big dog is the SLA (short-long arm) conversion, where you ditch your struts all together for a purpose built front end based around a pair of control arms. Way cool, way effective, way expensive. IIRC, the Griggs kit is around $14K, but includes 4-piston calipers on all four corners.

You are right, it is all about "stiffer, lighter, lower, flatter." Getting it done right, though, is the hard part. If you go too stiff, you skip over irregularities in the track, losing grip. Too soft, and the car will boat around under acceleration, cornering, and braking. The dampers are just there to control the springs, so to start it's all about the springs. Softer springs are more appropriate for street or DD usage, and will be the most versitile in both drag and track, but will offer the least benefit for either. Ultra-soft is good on the strip, and sucks on the track and streets. Ultra-stiff is good on the track, but sucks on the strip and streets.

Probably your best bet would be to go to coilovers. The springs are stupid cheap, available in a LARGE variety of rates (in 25lb increments, no less!), and relatively easy to change. Also, it allows you to play around with ride heights, which is almost impossible to do with OE fitment springs.

 

[alloy6ix]

Adjustable coilovers would be best so you can set them how you want them for drag day or autoX day, and they'll still work fine. Oh, and Griggs racing is incredibly good stuff, but make sure and reach deeeeeeep into those pockets.. lol.



http://www.griggsracing.com/index.p..._3680&osCsid=4d133e85fbd240f5c6e285c7e2735710

http://www.griggsracing.com/index.p..._3025&osCsid=4d133e85fbd240f5c6e285c7e2735710


http://www.griggsracing.com/index.p..._3045&osCsid=4d133e85fbd240f5c6e285c7e2735710


http://www.griggsracing.com/index.p..._3030&osCsid=4d133e85fbd240f5c6e285c7e2735710



http://www.griggsracing.com/index.p..._3040&osCsid=4d133e85fbd240f5c6e285c7e2735710





Thinkkker from this site uses Vogland suspension and a great set of wheels and tires, you could talk to him and see how it's working for him. Maybe even a Watts link to make sure the rear is going to hook on hard turns.

 

[SlideWRX]

Unless you're going to do a BBK, or X5 balljoints, I would think about 17" wheels rather than 18". The smaller diameter will give you a slight effective gearing increase, and the rotating mass is considerably lower. Also they'll be lighter, and as this is unsprung mass, it counts for roughly 10x what you do above the springs for weight reduction.

The diameter of the *tire* changes effective ratio; the wheel diameter doesn't.
If you look at the inertia change of less weight on a wheel or tire, individually it comes out to ~1.5x more important. If you consider the weight change at one wheel, remember it occurs at all four, so one could say that it is ~6x more important to reduce wheel weight than body weight. Some look at that 10x and *then* think 'well, if I apply it to all four wheels...'

08stang, if you're actually going to do track day driving, the very first thing to do is to go out and drive the car stock, or very close to stock. Upgrade pads & bleed the fluid (or upgrade it as well) and go *drive* on a track. The ability of the driver is more important than all the suspension mods. We all tends to think we are good/great drivers, and a couple track days or auto-x often change that. Putting all that equipment on a car and getting outrun by a stock Miata is embarrassing, and the car often gets blamed. To me, the Mustang is harder to drive than my old WRX; the WRX seemed much more consistent in it's balance, where the Mustang needs more finesse to keep it neutral with throttle oversteer. The first couple times I auto-x'd it, I got a big suprise when mid corner I hit the throttle and got big understeer.

If you're just worried about highway cloverleafs where this s2000 competitor might show up, then just build up a grippy, stiff suspension.

 

[08stang]

alright guys been doing some home work and damn you wernt joking about reaching deep in my pockets for Griggs but if i hold out and dont plan on finish upgrading my car till next spring instead of this fall i should be able to spring for the bug bucks and go with Griggs
http://www.griggsracing.com/product...d=582&osCsid=4d133e85fbd240f5c6e285c7e2735710

i have a feeling i would be much happier in the long run with this than if i went for just a cheep set of coilovers

 

[08stang]

The diameter of the *tire* changes effective ratio; the wheel diameter doesn't.
If you look at the inertia change of less weight on a wheel or tire, individually it comes out to ~1.5x more important. If you consider the weight change at one wheel, remember it occurs at all four, so one could say that it is ~6x more important to reduce wheel weight than body weight. Some look at that 10x and *then* think 'well, if I apply it to all four wheels...'

08stang, if you're actually going to do track day driving, the very first thing to do is to go out and drive the car stock, or very close to stock. Upgrade pads & bleed the fluid (or upgrade it as well) and go *drive* on a track. The ability of the driver is more important than all the suspension mods. We all tends to think we are good/great drivers, and a couple track days or auto-x often change that. Putting all that equipment on a car and getting outrun by a stock Miata is embarrassing, and the car often gets blamed. To me, the Mustang is harder to drive than my old WRX; the WRX seemed much more consistent in it's balance, where the Mustang needs more finesse to keep it neutral with throttle oversteer. The first couple times I auto-x'd it, I got a big suprise when mid corner I hit the throttle and got big understeer.

If you're just worried about highway cloverleafs where this s2000 competitor might show up, then just build up a grippy, stiff suspension.

dont worry about me having lack of experience behind the wheel of my car 34000 miles on the odometer says different i have been driving it like i stole it for a year and a half now on road courses auto x back country roads ect i have pushed my car to its limits and past them many times and as the title of this thread sujest im tired of getting out run by one brothers s2000 and the others rx7 i was the black sheep when i bought domestic

getting the impression you think im some jerk off that bought the car last week and wants to bolt everything on i can find

 

[alloy6ix]

alright guys been doing some home work and damn you wernt joking about reaching deep in my pockets for Griggs but if i hold out and dont plan on finish upgrading my car till next spring instead of this fall i should be able to spring for the bug bucks and go with Griggs
http://www.griggsracing.com/product...d=582&osCsid=4d133e85fbd240f5c6e285c7e2735710

i have a feeling i would be much happier in the long run with this than if i went for just a cheep set of coilovers

Well with the kit you picked, you're looking at right in between fun street car with great handling and fun track car with prefect handling, but not much of a street car due to ride harshness. The one you have chosen is a great kit, and since autoX isn't my career, I think that's the highest kit I'd go before making it a complete track car. Here's some vids to reassure you of what to expect.

 

[SoundGuyDave]

Slide: I completely agree, it's the overall diameter that will affect the net ratio, but given that we were talking about 275/40 tire patterns, I stand by the statement that the 17" rim will have a net increase in effective ratio. And thanks for the correction from roughly 10 to 6x. The point still stands, however, that lighter is MUCH better. Another reason for the smallest diameter wheels you can get away with.

08stang: relax, brother... You're new enough here where we don't automatically know your pedigree, level of experience, etc. A lot of the folks posting on this sub-forum are exactly as you describe: cloverleaf bandits. I've got only 19000 on my 2006, but 75% of that mileage is actually on a track, so I know where you're coming from. Slide's got his crap in one sack, so cut him a little slack, too... Oh, and if you can afford to pony up for a GR40 kit, I don't think that you'll be disappointed! You're talking GRIP, baby!

 

[alloy6ix]

Slide: I completely agree, it's the overall diameter that will affect the net ratio, but given that we were talking about 275/40 tire patterns, I stand by the statement that the 17" rim will have a net increase in effective ratio. And thanks for the correction from roughly 10 to 6x. The point still stands, however, that lighter is MUCH better. Another reason for the smallest diameter wheels you can get away with.

This is true, I have 18s right now, and will later move on to 17s for that very reason. Rotational mass is not my friend with those wheels...

 

[SoundGuyDave]

Same here... I'm ordering R-comps for my 17x9.5 wheels next month, and the net package should weigh about 8lbs more than JUST the 18" wheels I have now!

 

[alloy6ix]

Same here... I'm ordering R-comps for my 17x9.5 wheels next month, and the net package should weigh about 8lbs more than JUST the 18" wheels I have now!

Which 17" wheels are you running? that's really light!

 

[SoundGuyDave]

OE 2000 Cobra R 17" wheels. It's not that the R's are so light, it's that the Nitto 555's and my 18's are so heavy!