Tuning with speed density possible ?

[r.barn]

Is it possible to convert these new copper head ECU's to a speed density system for a boosted application ? Yes, MAF works, not asking that, lets not turn this into "one of those threads" ..... just want to know if it would be possible at all, plus stay emissions OBDII compliant too of course.

 

[SlowA$$5.0]

Is it possible to convert these new copper head ECU's to a speed density system for a boosted application ? Yes, MAF works, not asking that, lets not turn this into "one of those threads" ..... just want to know if it would be possible at all, plus stay emissions OBDII compliant too of course.

Why?

 

[r.barn]

Why?

Because its better for boost

 

[SlowA$$5.0]

Because its better for boost

No it isn't. Tuning based on MAP is not better, nor is it emissions friendly. What has every mustang come with since the late 80's? How many of them have been boosted?

 

[r.barn]

Sorry but it does have it's place, even in the 21st century. Go stick your head under some turbo pro-stock hoods and tell me how many MAF meters you find. I purposely said I didnt want to turn this into that discussion. But no meter to blow or suck thru at all, no voltage spikes, no worries on blow-off recirculation, and on and on can have its advantages.

I just want to know if it is even physically possible.

 

[SlowA$$5.0]

Sorry but it does have it's place, even in the 21st century. Go stick your head under some turbo pro-stock hoods and tell me how many MAF meters you find. I purposely said I didnt want to turn this into that discussion.

I just want to know if it is even physically possible.

Anything is possible. Go buy a stand alone system and vane air meter if that's what you want. I wasn't aware that pro-stock cars were very streetable? However, if you are building a pro-street 11 GT, then maybe you should, but you asked about emissions so I wasn't aware that was your goal.

 

[Full_Tilt]

Speed density is better for boosted applications, unfortunately mustang owners seem to be locked into the status quo and refuse to even ponder doing anything different than what all the other mustang owners are doing.

As far as streetability, Ive tuned cars making 200+ hp per liter on speed density that are an absolute dream to drive. A MAP sensor gives extraordinary resolution in vacuum that allows for immaculate tuning, and with proper IAT and ECT compensation they remain consistent through any weather changes.

 

[r.barn]

Anything is possible. Go buy a stand alone system and vane air meter if that's what you want. I wasn't aware that pro-stock cars were very streetable? However, if you are building a pro-street 11 GT, then maybe you should, but you asked about emissions so I wasn't aware that was your goal.

SD can be tuned just as streetable and just as fuel efficient as MAF.

MAF is a little more precise and emissions friendly is why it used widely on late model cars

It can be rather handicapped at higher hp levels due to over loading the meter and it adds another restriction to the intake system. MAFs have come a long way in the last 10 years and that has helped, but at the end of the day its one more thing in your intake path.

and I asked about it throwing codes in the OBDII computer. I dont care if it actually messes with the emissions since Texas doesnt sniff tail pipes on OBDII cars, just computer checks.

and I didnt ask if I could put another computer in either.

ugh.

Again, please if any good tuners on board know if the new factory ECU is a MAF only system or it has some SD provisions that could be turned on or whatever.

 

[lito]

Did you saw a MAP sensor in there?

 

[Full_Tilt]

P.S.

1.6L, 700 hp, streetable, speed sensity:




I guess the guys at Bisimoto Engineenering are a bunch of idiots though, if they were smart they would have a MAF.
No, better yet, get a fucking centrifugal supercharger, I heard those were super awesome. Who would ever want peak boost below max rpm?!

 

[Germeezy3]

Speed density is better for boosted applications, unfortunately mustang owners seem to be locked into the status quo and refuse to even ponder doing anything different than what all the other mustang owners are doing.

As far as streetability, Ive tuned cars making 200+ hp per liter on speed density that are an absolute dream to drive. A MAP sensor gives extraordinary resolution in vacuum that allows for immaculate tuning, and with proper IAT and ECT compensation they remain consistent through any weather changes.

Not to mention throttle response on speed density vs MAF, its a lot more common in the LSx world than it is the Mustang world.

 

[SRTthis]

see sig... thats a good bit over 200 per liter

as for can it be done. i will talk to rick and see if he has found anything in the new CPU's that would lead him to believe it can be done

 

[stkjock]

allow me to refer to Hawgman's Rules:

1. DON'T FUCK UP THE TECH THREADS. Yes, there are going to be some dumb ass threads that deserve comments. Noobs, just get used to it. You guys know what we mean.

Thread cleaned up - let's leave it that way

 

[Wicked97]

You could go with a Big Stuff 3 other wise thats it

 

[r.barn]

Thanks Eric.

I figured that was the case, but was surprised when messing with my Tahoe a few years back to find out they could be swapped over to a straight SD tune using factory sensor and ECU.

Figured I'd ask here if it was possible on these cars as well.
No interest in installing a 3rd party box. Have an AEM in my '89 and love it, but no need or interest to go that route on this car.


btw: any word on a T-56 magnum kit yet ?

 

[KJGT]

I havent ran across the MAP sensor yet or seen anything in the PRP software that lets me think that its possible, more tables in the dealer software so it may be. If not, like the LS stuff, maybe down the road someone can write some custom code to the pcm to add a MAP and SD tune it but with the close loop fueling it seems kind a big step backwards.

I ran a BS3 on my last two fast FI LS cars and a Gen7 on the N/A car, there is all kinds of ways to do a 2-3 bar speed density on the stock LS ECUs but having a 3 step, low impedance injector driver, ability to tune on the fly, super fast logging and closed loop wideband fueling was a plus.

I do agree on ditching the MAF, especially draw through, on an FI application is a plus. And yes with enough time a SD tuned car can run very well, but depending on how much resolution there is on the VE tables the MAF and some kind of O2 control usually wins in that department..

 

[Full_Tilt]

Well back in the day there was a lot of simple little circuits that would basically take a MAP output and convert it into a MAF output (although not scaled or proportioned with a direct relationship). This had limited success as often times the resolution of the maps is effectively decreased, depending on how the circuit was designed.
Plus it would be completely tuning from scratch, the maps would look totally different than what they would look like normally.

I think this kind of thing mostly gets a bad name from the crappy piggybacks its associated with, like Apexi AFCs and other shit excuses for EMS.

I know in the DSM world they have some more advanced devices that allow you to replace the draw through AFM with a blow through MAS (which has a GM 3 Bar MAP sensor built into it). I breifly helped tune a car with one of these setups but never really got into really tuning it because it had some other problems.
This is apparently the "thing to do" with those cars (besides speed density anyway)

 

[beefcake]

my 99 cobra was run off a speed density fast system.

drivability was perfect, and the car was a beast.. peak toque @ 6000, peak hp at 7400

hell of a fun street car

 

[kmracer]

Speed density is better for boosted applications, unfortunately mustang owners seem to be locked into the status quo and refuse to even ponder doing anything different than what all the other mustang owners are doing.

As far as streetability, Ive tuned cars making 200+ hp per liter on speed density that are an absolute dream to drive. A MAP sensor gives extraordinary resolution in vacuum that allows for immaculate tuning, and with proper IAT and ECT compensation they remain consistent through any weather changes.

AGREED. its weird how every standalone, be it motec, bs3, xfi, megasquirt, blah blah blah... NONE of them use a maf. how many factory boosted cars use a maf? very very few. WEIIIRRRDDD. but kimpossible. it'll run like shit and make giant holes in our atmosphere.

 

[Sky Render]

Well back in the day there was a lot of simple little circuits that would basically take a MAP output and convert it into a MAF output (although not scaled or proportioned with a direct relationship). This had limited success as often times the resolution of the maps is effectively decreased, depending on how the circuit was designed.
Plus it would be completely tuning from scratch, the maps would look totally different than what they would look like normally.

I think this kind of thing mostly gets a bad name from the crappy piggybacks its associated with, like Apexi AFCs and other shit excuses for EMS.

I know in the DSM world they have some more advanced devices that allow you to replace the draw through AFM with a blow through MAS (which has a GM 3 Bar MAP sensor built into it). I breifly helped tune a car with one of these setups but never really got into really tuning it because it had some other problems.
This is apparently the "thing to do" with those cars (besides speed density anyway)

HKS used to make a kit for the Supra that converted the MAF sensor to MAP. I don't know any more details than that, though.

It is certainly possible to make the Coyote's ECU utilize a MAP sensor. An electronic device that converted the MAP signal into a format similar to the MAF's signal would be needed. Then, at a minimum, all of the A/F tables would have to be completely redone.

It would be easier to use a standalone ECU.

As for tuning, I've working on both types of turbo motors--MAF and MAP. In my opinion, MAP is easier to work with and gives you more options for tuning.