Upgrading the Intercooler in a S/C Manifold

[BACNBLAK]

Joe at KC told me to remove the HE for max efficiency. I appreciate the suggestion but for the time being, its gonna stay off. I think the main issue is volume. Im gonig to tackle that first.

He told me to put an aux fan on the a/c condensor. Haven't done it yet, but did bypass the h/e. with my killer chiller. My ic tank temps are still about 110 degrees in the spring weather but my a/c efficiency sucks. I'm going to put a functional hood scoop over the blower. Roush makes pre-painted scoops, the one I got matches my car perfectly.

 

[94tbird]

Ron, I don't mean to beat a dead horse, as you have made up your mind already but please allow me this... The last time you made that comment (another thread), I didn't ask but now I really have to:

How will the manifold cooling system as a whole operate more efficiently, when its cooling capability is reduced by removing the HE? You want the water to go through the HE (cool), then go into the KC (cold) on its way to the IC. I don't see any way removing the HE will ever be efficient.

As I said, I'm not trying to "stir" the proverbial pot, I just don't really agree with Joe's rationale. I would actually like an explanation of how this works better than the standard configuration, as I just can't understand it being more efficient.

Also, if the tank is on the discharge side of the pump and not the suction, the system will not function properly. I'm sure you know, but I have seen this as well.

the point of this is debate and to find answers and tech information and a solution so i dont mind at all haha

Because the fluid coming out of the intercooler is still colder than the ambient air. by having cooler fluid pass through the heat exchanger, your actually warming the fluid, not cooling it. the heat exchanger would actually be working in reverse. this also introduces condensation to the heat exchanger, then dripping as the water builds up on the outside.

When i check the fluid after a run, it is still cooler than ambient. To me that means either the intercooler is not doing its job, or not very efficient, its a volume issue, or the pump isnt pumping properly.

The tank is not on the discharge side of the pump, it is on the discharge side of the intercooler. the pump draws fluid from the tank and pushes it into the KC. it then travels into the intercooler, then back into the tank and repeats the flow process.

He told me to put an aux fan on the a/c condensor. Haven't done it yet, but did bypass the h/e. with my killer chiller. My ic tank temps are still about 110 degrees in the spring weather but my a/c efficiency sucks. I'm going to put a functional hood scoop over the blower. Roush makes pre-painted scoops, the one I got matches my car perfectly.

I have the aux fan on the condensor already.

 

[Natural1]

The tank is not on the discharge side of the pump, it is on the discharge side of the intercooler. the pump draws fluid from the tank and pushes it into the KC. it then travels into the intercooler, then back into the tank and repeats the flow process.

Which is correct... only, the pump needs to draw from the tank, push water through the HE and then through the KC enroute to the IC. It will then be, water to air and then water to refrigerated cooling. This will significantly reduce the load on the KC.

Because the fluid coming out of the intercooler is still colder than the ambient air. by having cooler fluid pass through the heat exchanger, your actually warming the fluid, not cooling it.

Not if you were using the HE to cool the hot fluid after the IC but before it goes into the KC, therefore increasing the efficiency of the system. This was what I was trying to convey, anyway.

 

[BACNBLAK]

I have the aux fan on the condensor already.

At least the beast cools down fast. I'm thinking about putting on methanol injection, BBR makes an injection plate that fits under KB blowers.

 

[Natural1]

Here is a diagram off of Kincaid's site.

 

[MikeVistaBlue06]

One input I have is to ensure your intercooler is free from oil/grease/coke (not the snortin kind!). This can cause issues with air to intercooler heat exchange--the oil/grease/coke residue will act as an insulator. Of course this will be a PITA to address, but it may not be a bad idea to take the SC off occasionally and "clean" the intercooler with some Gumout to get it back down to bare aluminum.

This stuff that gets on these parts are hot oil/gasoline byproducts that "coke-up" the throttle body (and in older times carburetors)--blackish brown looking shit.

Ideally you want that air to hit pure aluminum to pull the heat out of it.

Now the other thing to investigate is to see if someone makes a COPPER intercooler as it will pull a helluva lot more heat out. Of course it will cost $$$$$.

HTH

Mike

 

[19COBRA93]

When i check the fluid after a run, it is still cooler than ambient. To me that means either the intercooler is not doing its job, or not very efficient, its a volume issue, or the pump isnt pumping properly.

If the intercooler itself is not efficient, then your intake temps would be high through the entire run, not just at the end. If you're getting high temps at the end of a run only, then you're fluid is getting heat soaked which means you're overworking the KC, or you need a higher fluid capacity.

I too think a H/E would be very helpful in your situation. It would need to be positioned after the intercooler so that right out of the intercooler the heated fluid hits the H/E first, then into the reservoir, then into the KC then into the intercooler. If that makes sense. I'd imagine it could also go from the intercooler to the reservoir then into the heat exchanger and on to the rest of the system.

The intercooler KB uses is very efficient and has been proven efficient to well over 800 hp. So you're efficiency issue is somewhere else in the system. I'd start with fluid capacity first.

 

[JeremyH]

On another note, since you stated the coolant is still colder than ambient leaving the intercooler, is it possible the removal of the HE and reduced capacity KC sytem coolant is moving throught the intercooler too quickly and doesnt have enought time to absorb as much heat as the intake air flows over the intercooler.
What are coolant temps, pre/post intercooler? with the KC system doesnt the coolant need to be getting hot after passing through the intercooler to do its job effectively?

Just an idea

 

[MikeVistaBlue06]

I remember reading on KB's website...don't you want to chill the air going into the SC rather than after it is in the SC? For the purpose of making more power--air is more dense when chilled. KB claimed no gains chilling the air inside the SC (intercooler). The IC's job is just to extract the heat made from compressing the air.

Just curious.

EDIT: Here is the link: http://www.kennebell.net/techinfo/general-info/SC_efficiency.pdf

Mike

 

[rednek01]

On another note, since you stated the coolant is still colder than ambient leaving the intercooler, is it possible the removal of the HE and reduced capacity KC sytem coolant is moving throught the intercooler too quickly and doesnt have enought time to absorb as much heat as the intake air flows over the intercooler.
What are coolant temps, pre/post intercooler? with the KC system doesnt the coolant need to be getting hot after passing through the intercooler to do its job effectively?

Just an idea

I had this exact issue with the with the cooling system on my fox. I think you are on the right track.

 

[don_w]

Then I pulled the relay out of the intercooler pump going to the staging lanes and plugged it back in before a run so the ice would not melt going thru the pits.

Hmmm... rather than pulling the relay, a switch in the driver's compartment would be awesome for that.

 

[94tbird]

Which is correct... only, the pump needs to draw from the tank, push water through the HE and then through the KC enroute to the IC. It will then be, water to air and then water to refrigerated cooling. This will significantly reduce the load on the KC.


Not if you were using the HE to cool the hot fluid after the IC but before it goes into the KC, therefore increasing the efficiency of the system. This was what I was trying to convey, anyway.

The fluid coming out of the intercooler is still cooler than ambient. if it were to pass through a heat exchanger, then the heat exchanger would be heating the fluid, not cooling it.

 

[94tbird]

Here is a diagram off of Kincaid's site.

I am aware of their diagram, however that is for their standard kits which i do not have. I have a complete bypass kit.

 

[94tbird]

One input I have is to ensure your intercooler is free from oil/grease/coke (not the snortin kind!). This can cause issues with air to intercooler heat exchange--the oil/grease/coke residue will act as an insulator. Of course this will be a PITA to address, but it may not be a bad idea to take the SC off occasionally and "clean" the intercooler with some Gumout to get it back down to bare aluminum.

This stuff that gets on these parts are hot oil/gasoline byproducts that "coke-up" the throttle body (and in older times carburetors)--blackish brown looking shit.

Ideally you want that air to hit pure aluminum to pull the heat out of it.

Now the other thing to investigate is to see if someone makes a COPPER intercooler as it will pull a helluva lot more heat out. Of course it will cost $$$$$.

HTH

Mike

That may very well be a problem. the SB is getting changed next week so i can take a loo kand clean it for sure.

If the intercooler itself is not efficient, then your intake temps would be high through the entire run, not just at the end. If you're getting high temps at the end of a run only, then you're fluid is getting heat soaked which means you're overworking the KC, or you need a higher fluid capacity.

I too think a H/E would be very helpful in your situation. It would need to be positioned after the intercooler so that right out of the intercooler the heated fluid hits the H/E first, then into the reservoir, then into the KC then into the intercooler. If that makes sense. I'd imagine it could also go from the intercooler to the reservoir then into the heat exchanger and on to the rest of the system.

The intercooler KB uses is very efficient and has been proven efficient to well over 800 hp. So you're efficiency issue is somewhere else in the system. I'd start with fluid capacity first.

I agree on the highe fluid capacity. After talking with Joe he recommends about 2 gallons and a 4 minute warmup before making a run to properly cool the fluid. He still maintains that not having the HE is better. The only negative is the fluid capacity it offers, but if you can make that up in a tank then it negates itself.

On another note, since you stated the coolant is still colder than ambient leaving the intercooler, is it possible the removal of the HE and reduced capacity KC sytem coolant is moving throught the intercooler too quickly and doesnt have enought time to absorb as much heat as the intake air flows over the intercooler.
What are coolant temps, pre/post intercooler? with the KC system doesnt the coolant need to be getting hot after passing through the intercooler to do its job effectively?

Just an idea

I thought the same thing, however according to joe at KC, it is a closed system, the fluid cant move too quickly. If it were an open system that would be correct.

I remember reading on KB's website...don't you want to chill the air going into the SC rather than after it is in the SC? For the purpose of making more power--air is more dense when chilled. KB claimed no gains chilling the air inside the SC (intercooler). The IC's job is just to extract the heat made from compressing the air.

Just curious.

EDIT: Here is the link: http://www.kennebell.net/techinfo/general-info/SC_efficiency.pdf

Mike

If you were to chill the air before it went into the A/C what would that acomplish? yoouve now chilled air that is getting compressed when gonig into the blower, thus reheating it. Thats why the intercooler comes after the blower has compressed the air. Thats why KB, Saleen, Whipple all use intercoolers under/after the blower. I think your confusing the intercooler (under the blower) with the heat exchanger (in the bumper. The intercooler removes heat fro mthe compressed air charge. the heat exchanger removes heat from the liquid that has already passed through the intercooler. The killer chiller replaces the heat exchanger and in place of the air cooling, it is chemically cooling the fluid

 

[19COBRA93]

The fluid coming out of the intercooler is still cooler than ambient. if it were to pass through a heat exchanger, then the heat exchanger would be heating the fluid, not cooling it.

At what point and what method do you use to measure the fluid temps after a run? Is there a sensor in the system you can monitor it with? Do you pull off on the return road and physically check the temps? Do you do it back in the pits?

 

[Natural1]

I don't see any way that the water coming out of the IC is below ambient with 150deg+ IC discharge temps. I'm at a loss based on the information you are providing, I didn't see those temps on the Cobra (900whp) before the KC.

 

[94tbird]

I think my problem is 3 fold.

Im gonig to figure out a way to increase my fluid capacity to 2-3 gallons as joe suggested.
Im gonig to clean the intercooler as Mike suggested when i swap the SB next week
im gonig to give the car a proper 4-5 minute warmup before making a run.

Judging by the 5 minute idle test i did the other day, i saw 25 degree fluid temps BEFORE it hit the KC. I never saw more than 50-60 degree fluid temps when starting a run and they were always around 80 after the burnout or higher. I previously had not been allowing the K/C to chill the fluid long enough, maybe only 1-2 minutes. just as long as it took to drive the car from the pits to the lanes, then A/C got shut off, burnout, and run, turning the a/c back on on the return road.

2 of these are free and easy to acomplish. the fluid capacity will take some creative thinking

 

[94tbird]

At what point and what method do you use to measure the fluid temps after a run? Is there a sensor in the system you can monitor it with? Do you pull off on the return road and physically check the temps? Do you do it back in the pits?

I woudl check as soon as i got to the pits, but its a real short road. I( have a gauge from KC coming to monitor fluid temps at all times to get more accurate readings. I was using a non contact thermometer to measure temps of fluid, and i have the aeroforce scan gauge to measure IATs

I don't see any way that the water coming out of the IC is below ambient with 150deg+ IC discharge temps. I'm at a loss based on the information you are providing, I didn't see those temps on the Cobra (900whp) before the KC.

I was checking the fluid when i got back to the pits with the said thermometer above and the fluid was always cool to the touch. Not the most accurate method I know but its what i had at the time.

I am also changing from R134A to Industrial 12 as per Joe at KC as well. He said it cools 1.5 times as much and quicker to boot.

As i said above first steps are fluid capacity, clean the intercooler, and proper warmup. If they don't work, ill take it from there and start messing with an heat exchanger, ect. Ive got a stock sized KB one here

start with the simple, easy ones and then work up from there heh

 

[Natural1]

I have also seen oil and grime perform very well as an insulator, when the IC is dirty.

/\ If are truly getting cool water out of the IC after a pass, I would check into the exchanger because it sounds like it is not transferring heat to the water. If it hasn't been cleaned, then you may want to check it because I can guarantee it is dirty. We notice a big difference everytime the Lightning gets a good once over. At that point, the water should be hot out of the IC before the KC. I didn't design the system, but I can tell you that the water should be hot enough leaving the IC to necessitate the need for the HE before the KC. The car we installed this system on was running a Hellion kit feeding into a 3.4L Whipple. Yes, I think it is redundancy at its finest, but it has laid down well over 1000hp.


Best of luck buddy!

 

[94tbird]

Thanks Tanner,

Im sure its covered in oil. The motor is a larry_h abortion so im sure not much was done right other than getting me to mid 10s with only a few bumps in the road..