Valve guides?

BeachMonkey100

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I can't get onto the ford service manuals since the website is down, does anyone know the clearance specs for the guides? I am on the debate of having bronze guides put in since their headed to the machine shop soon, or don't know if factory is fine as long as it's in spec.
 

niner555

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I would stick with the OEM style cast iron guides, seems as though the bronze guides don't wear as well in 3V heads.
 

stkjock

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Tasca Ford - SV here, get with "Steve@Tasca"
 

BeachMonkey100

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also has anyone ever altered the valve seat angle or asked to change it? I know from a 45* to say something like a 52* helps in many ways but you lose some valve seal life, worth it?
 

psfracer

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That would be worth your time to look into.

I just got my heads back (they are BBF though), but we got a significant increase in mid lift flow numbers (.400 to .800) by playing with different angles to see what the head/port liked or didn't like. It also didn't really affect peak flow numbers at 1.000 lift. Well worth the time/effort if you have some extra valves to experiment with and a porter with a flow bench.
 

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I've done a lot of research on this for my build and the consensus I found is to just keep the OEM guides. The OEM spec sheet I have (printed it out in entirety at work awhile back) calls for intake valve guide clearance to be .001-.003 and exhaust to be .002-.004. If you want PM me and I can send you the scanned version of the entire ford spec and manual. OEM valve angle is supposed to be 44.5-45.5 degrees too. FYI.
 

weather man

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So I have been driving myself crazy looking at head options. Jim at JDM and Ron at Foxlake both very helpful, but with different perspectives. Found this while researching, and I wonder, is this why some have success with bronze valve guides and some do not have success????

http://www.enginebuildermag.com/2010/10/sizing-up-the-valve-guide/

What about finish?
Ra finish is all over the board as I found during research for this article. Most agree that too rough will reduce life and too smooth will not allow enough oil to be held in the bore to provide the necessary lubricant and heat transfer. My research has found that somewhere between 30 Ra and 80 Ra is the range. Bronze is suggested to be a lesser or smoother Ra especially for high-performance and cast iron tends to be higher on the scale especially for diesel as this rougher Ra will hold that much needed oil for diesel lubrication and heat transfer.

Most reamers except the carbide reamers will not deliver the necessary Ra finish you need for these newer valve guide applications. The diamond hones and diamond reamers will deliver the finish, as will abrasive type of guide hones, but the regular reamers need a little help with another tool after the valve guides are to size. Using a small diameter flexible honing tool will get you a couple more positive Ra’s and then follow through with an honing tool designed for finish or plateau honing. Yes these soft honing mandrels are made out the same material you use for final cylinder hone finishing. My testing showed with the combination of hones delivered a finish in the single digits. Again the Ra finish is directly related to the application. Always check with your valve guide supplier to determine what Ra you need for that application.
 

BruceH

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So I have been driving myself crazy looking at head options. Jim at JDM and Ron at Foxlake both very helpful, but with different perspectives. Found this while researching, and I wonder, is this why some have success with bronze valve guides and some do not have success????

http://www.enginebuildermag.com/2010/10/sizing-up-the-valve-guide/

What about finish?
Ra finish is all over the board as I found during research for this article. Most agree that too rough will reduce life and too smooth will not allow enough oil to be held in the bore to provide the necessary lubricant and heat transfer. My research has found that somewhere between 30 Ra and 80 Ra is the range. Bronze is suggested to be a lesser or smoother Ra especially for high-performance and cast iron tends to be higher on the scale especially for diesel as this rougher Ra will hold that much needed oil for diesel lubrication and heat transfer.

Most reamers except the carbide reamers will not deliver the necessary Ra finish you need for these newer valve guide applications. The diamond hones and diamond reamers will deliver the finish, as will abrasive type of guide hones, but the regular reamers need a little help with another tool after the valve guides are to size. Using a small diameter flexible honing tool will get you a couple more positive Ra’s and then follow through with an honing tool designed for finish or plateau honing. Yes these soft honing mandrels are made out the same material you use for final cylinder hone finishing. My testing showed with the combination of hones delivered a finish in the single digits. Again the Ra finish is directly related to the application. Always check with your valve guide supplier to determine what Ra you need for that application.

AFAIK the only guides that have ever been a problem for 3v heads are aftermarket bronze guides. Why are you reinventing something that works perfectly?
 

weather man

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AFAIK the only guides that have ever been a problem for 3v heads are aftermarket bronze guides. Why are you reinventing something that works perfectly?

But why are they a problem for some and not others? All the RGR stuff comes with bronze guides, haven't heard of them having issues.

Ron said a lot of the iron valve guides are beat to hell also, when they come in.

Bronze does transmit heat better than cast iron, which is why they are desirable.

I think Foxlake is one of the shops that could install them correctly. Just trying to figure out if it is worthwhile.
 

BlueDevil

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That would be worth your time to look into.

I just got my heads back (they are BBF though), but we got a significant increase in mid lift flow numbers (.400 to .800) by playing with different angles to see what the head/port liked or didn't like. It also didn't really affect peak flow numbers at 1.000 lift. Well worth the time/effort if you have some extra valves to experiment with and a porter with a flow bench.

Are multi-angle valve jobs still a thing? Like a 3 angle cut?
 

BruceH

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But why are they a problem for some and not others? All the RGR stuff comes with bronze guides, haven't heard of them having issues.

Ron said a lot of the iron valve guides are beat to hell also, when they come in.

Bronze does transmit heat better than cast iron, which is why they are desirable.

I think Foxlake is one of the shops that could install them correctly. Just trying to figure out if it is worthwhile.

I agree that bronze only seems to be a problem for one company and if I was to guess my guess would be that they aren't sizing or finishing them correctly.

Still though, afaik nobody has had an issue with the factory guides. I'm not arguing, just having a friendly discussion.

Do you think it's just yet another carry over from days gone by when manufacturers couldn't hold tight tolerances and when most heads were cast iron? It seems that all too often modern changes and engineering just aren't taken into consideration when building motors. It's probably just me.
 

weather man

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I agree that bronze only seems to be a problem for one company and if I was to guess my guess would be that they aren't sizing or finishing them correctly.

Still though, afaik nobody has had an issue with the factory guides. I'm not arguing, just having a friendly discussion.

Do you think it's just yet another carry over from days gone by when manufacturers couldn't hold tight tolerances and when most heads were cast iron? It seems that all too often modern changes and engineering just aren't taken into consideration when building motors. It's probably just me.

No worry's Bruce. I think the heat/pressure generated when these motors are pushed past 700HP is something to be given serious thought. Ford designed them for 300HP. It is why I am swaintech coating the pistons/heads/valves and am giving serious thought to bronze guides.

Ron did tell me it is definitely more work to correctly setup the bronze over the cast iron.
 
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BruceH

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No worry's Bruce. I think the heat/pressure generated when these motors are pushed past 700HP is something to be given serious thought. Ford designed them for 300HP. It is why I am swaintech coating the pistons/heads/valves and am giving serious thought to bronze guides.

Ron did tell me it is definitely more work to correctly setup the bronze over the cast iron.

So did you ever come to a decision on guides or who will do the head work for you? It's pretty hard to beat the value from FRPP. They are made by Livernois but for some reason the FRPP heads with bronze guides were never problematic like the Livernois were.

I wonder if FRPP (I've wondered this before, lol) holds a tighter inspection and tolerances to parts with their name on it. For all we know they could spec different tolerances than Livernois uses and that's why FRPP never had an issue. Just a thinking out loud guess on my part. Maybe Ford Racing does their own assembly once the heads are cnc machined?

There has to be a difference somewhere.
 

weather man

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So did you ever come to a decision on guides or who will do the head work for you? It's pretty hard to beat the value from FRPP. They are made by Livernois but for some reason the FRPP heads with bronze guides were never problematic like the Livernois were.

I wonder if FRPP (I've wondered this before, lol) holds a tighter inspection and tolerances to parts with their name on it. For all we know they could spec different tolerances than Livernois uses and that's why FRPP never had an issue. Just a thinking out loud guess on my part. Maybe Ford Racing does their own assembly once the heads are cnc machined?

There has to be a difference somewhere.

Foxlake will do the work. Skwerl said he had issues with the used FRPP high flow heads he bought. I will most likely go with bronze guides.
 

hamish

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Foxlake put the bronze guides in my heads, so far no issues.

When I spoke with Ron about doing the heads he steered me away from doing oversized valves when he could have easily sold them to me and turned a profit.
Told me he wouldn't have suggested them if they didn't work.
 

weather man

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Brian,

I have not analyzed the factory 3V follower so I do not know for certain how much stiffer or stronger our billet follower is compared to the factory piece. I will say ‘significant’ but that’s a relative term. Our follower is heavier and has a significantly higher moment of inertia (typically a bad thing) about the pivot post due to the valve roller, so generally if you are not having issues with the factory follower then you should continue to use it.

Our followers are primarily purchased by customers with the following issues:
1. Needles within the factory followers are corroded/rusted. I am not sure why this would occur but it does. OEM parts must have been sitting for a LONG time on a shelf somewhere.
2. Customer running a lot of nitrous or boost with extreme cylinder pressure bending/breaking the factory follower or wearing valve guides and needing a needle valve roller instead of the factory scuffer pad
3. Endurance racing (24/25 hour racers) wanting something more durable
4. Customer needing or wanting a solid lash post and a more secure pivot/follower engagement for durability, performance, or peace of mind

Let me know if I can be of any further assistance.
Tim Fodor
Design & Product Engineer
JESEL Inc.
1985 Cedar Bridge Ave., Suite 2
Lakewood, NJ 08701
(732) 901-1800 ext. 169
 

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