3v Fuel Systems And Their Capacities

I'm writing a in depth article on boosting the 3v. It's along the lines of "It will cost you/these are the parts you need" to make 450hp, 550hp, 600hp, 650hp. etc.

I'm not terribly familiar with what fuel pump combo's will support what power. Most of the stuff I have dealt with has been either 450hp or straight to big power and big fuel/return systems.

I'm looking for the "budget" solutions to the different HP levels. And I would like to base most of it around the FRPP/GT500 drop in pump kit and after those run out of fuel BAP's. Or really any combo that you know about that works for XXXhp.

Can you guys post up "what takes what" for me. Maybe your particular fuel system combination and the power you're making (include fuel type too). I can consolidate the information into one easy reference source.

Thanks!!!

2 Deatschwerks DW200's in a stock hat easily handles E85 700 HP returnless. Danny said they would be good to 800 HP or so. They are $99 a piece on their website right now.

Ask Jermeyh. I'm gonna have stock hat mod walbro 405 returnless, hpx with 60lb ford racing injectors. The goal was about 600whp on 93 and not be on the edge. I will of course report back when it's all together or falls apart [emoji15]


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I PM'd Jeremy and BruceH.

I've run a few combos over the years. Most were with GT500 pumps and stock lines. There are too many combos to list without going into boring detail so I'll give you some of the max hp that's been supported with GT500 pumps.

GT500 pumps, stock power wire, 80 lb injectors supported 575 on e85 with a Whipple and stock displacement motor. Added an 8 gauge power wire and it supported 599rwhp with a little room left. I wasn't doing my own tuning at the time so I don't know what was commanded for rail pressure.

GT500 pumps, 8 gauge power wire, single 40 amp bap wired into both fpdms. E85, 285 cubic inches of displacement, 970cc bosch injectors, commanded 39.15 rail pressure, 19psi, 699rwhp with a little room to spare in pump duty cycle. This was with all stock lines, stock rails, and returnless.

GT500 pumps, 8 gauge power wire, 40 amp bap, 322 cubic inches, 55lb gt 500 injectors, e85, 50 psi commanded at the rail with higher loads. IIRC I was around 80% duty cycle and making 587rhwp at 7psi with a DOB kit and M122 blower.

I've always tried to keep it as simple as possible. I already had the GT500 pumps and harness, I'm a big fan of how far Ford has come with engine management so I try to use what they have provided. One of those things is an excellent returnless system that allows for different rail pressures to be commanded at different loads. This allows for a wide range of injectors to be used and for an injector to flow at multiple rates based on what the commanded drop is across the injectors. All easily adjusted in the tune.

I've used the GT500 pump system with the stock power wire, gasoline, and a whipple with a stock displacement motor and never maxed the pumps. Only saw a max of around 535rhwp though. This was with the stock exhaust including cats and a lower than stock compression motor.

Hope this helps.

Bruce

Do you have a guess how much more (maybe a percentage) those combo's would run with gas?

15%?
20%?
25%?

sqidd said:

Bruce

Do you have a guess how much more (maybe a percentage) those combo's would run with gas?

15%?
20%?
25%?

Click to expand...

Not really. I wasn't paying attention to most of the tuning stuff until I started with e85. That means I wasn't doing much data logging until I was tuning myself and pushing things.

I can tell you that I was only able to support 409rhwp with the stock pump, gas, and a whipple at around 8psi. The whipple kit comes with 32 pound injectors that can be commanded to supply more than their rated output with more rail pressure.

I do know of others who have supported over 500rwhp on gas with 39 pound injectors, stock pump, and a bap with a boosted setup.

I'm sure Jeremy will have a whole bunch of info on what his customers have been able to do with different setups. He's gone through a big learning curve with actual experience related to what's working so his input will be valuable.

I think that one of the variables is tuner skill. Sometimes someone will say they could only support xxx hp with xxx fuel setup. While someone else can get quite a bit more out of the same setup. Dynos vary but so does the skill of the tuner. A tuner who doesn't know how to manuipulate the commanded pressure drop for higher loads won't be able to support as much hp with a given fuel system than a tuner who has experimented with different rail pressures and different injectors.

At least that's my opinion. It's based on some of the things I've learned over the years. The easiest thing for a tuner to do is go with a return system and very large injectors that support a low pulsewidth. That takes all of the returnless parameters out of the tune and still supports a very driveable vehicle because of the low pulsewidth injectors.

Going return style also makes it real easy to size injectors because they are only capable of flowing at the psi of the regulator. I haven't seen too many charts that approximate how well an injector that's flow is rated at 3 bar (43.5psi) flows at 4 bar or even 5 bar. It can be gusstimated by using the fuel injector parameters but I don't know how accurate they are at higher psi.

In any case I would think that someone who is adding a DOB kit to a stock 4.6 3v will be just fine with a drop in GT500 fuel pump kit or a single bap and the stock fuel pump. Might as well add a larger power wire while doing the bap.

FWIW the older GT500 motors would run out of fuel on gasoline right around 630rhwp. At that point a fuel injector upgrade would add range. The older stock GT500 injectors were rated at 47lbs at 39.15psi and 52lbs at 43.5psi iirc.

I'm excited for a GT500 drop in fuel system without added wires or finagling.

I am currently running the walbro 405 from S&H @ ~8.5 psi on a stock engine with cats, and am @ 85% fpdc. I have the wire upgrade. I was going to see if it would support dropping 10mm off of the blower pulley but I don't want to be bumping 100% fpdc. I have 47/52 injectors.

I don't think I'll be much help in here. After reading the post above it looks like I swung for the fence with my set up

Dual 465 walbros on a return system with ID 1000s

I laid down 650 RWHP on E85

This is probably going to be a long post with a fuck ton of info, so warning yall now lol.

What I have learned from all the stuff I have built and tested is there is a metric shit ton of things that effect where you can get on your fuel system. This is why you get similar setups on different cars that can vary so much. A good grasp on these concepts can help you make a better decision on why fueling is important and why your system may behave or operate differently then the next guy.

First I will scratch upon the most common factors that will effect you fuel system's performance, then I will get into general power potential for setups. It is these reasons why it never hurts to build bigger or build "wiggle" room into your setup. I'm sure everyone has heard the saying "you can never have enough fuel system" and I agree it is a very smart investment to build this room in.

-Where do you live? Elevation, climate, day to day weather, density altitude etc. will all effect how much fuel the engine needs based on the air quality the motor is getting at the time.

-Load. Weight of your vehicle, rear end gear, tire height, rotational mass, driving up a hill, 1,2,3 passengers, junk in the trunk etc. This will all affect how much fuel your engine consumes. Dyno's are not perfect and cant fully simulate real world load or these chance/random changing conditions. This is where remote datalogging and real load tuning while the car is actually doing work has its advantages. These factors can all cause a higher demand for fuel for the motor, nominally 1-3%. Some tuners know this and account for it for safety. When your car is done tuning and you see that number he may leave it or may add anywhere from 2-3% or 5-7% more fuel at WOT. So whatever that duty cycle number was or that pressure was or that AFR was has now changed. You car may now consume more fuel than the next guy just from this change alone.

-BSFC. How much fuel your engine needs for the setup. This varies a lot from setup to setup. Engine displacement, intake, exhaust, pulleys, power adder type, cam profile, compression, iats, 02 sensors. spark plug temperature and gap, coil energy, etc. Will all effect the amount of fuel the engine needs for stoich combustion. So if you have twin screw that needs 10.5 wot afr or turbo tuned for 11.9 wot afr. There goes a significant change in fuel requirements again.

-Boost level. We will lead right into this from bsfc. Your boost level in the cylinders has a huge effect on power potential of the fuel pump and injectors. As base pressure goes up to help the injectors overcome boost in the cylinders flow of the pump goes down. For example. A pump that flows 255lph at 40psi will only flow 220lph at 60psi. So you need to know how much boost you are going to run plus base pressure to get to realistic flow potential of the pumps at your max power/max boost level. (Don't forget to account for fuel line and filter losses, your true pressure level is always higher than what your computer think it is at the rail, more on that in a sec.)

*Side note* BSFC and boost level are the two biggest factors in wot afr requirements and how much power your fuel pump can support. The more power you can make per pound of boost, the further you can get on your setup. Most common example is a lower compression turbo car making 625rwhp before maxing a fuel pump and a higher compression blower car maxing the same pump at 550rwhp.

-Friction Losses. Your fuel has to move from the tank to the injectors. There are generally 4 places of restriction in this process that will effect pressure output of the pump and in turn flow/power potential:

-Fuel pump pre filter/filter sock. This has a larger effect than most think. A clogged filter will have the obvious suction restriction but on the flip side a worn or damage or filter sock that has come off can also create cavitation at the pump inlet, cavitation creates heat and affects flow of the fuel. I have not seen pressure loss specs for this affect but it is a factor for your system.

-Inline filter. Even a brand new clean filter will have a 1-2psi drop across the filter element. This pressure drop goes up in a somewhat linear rate over time. From testing on my car with a pressure gauge pre filter I had an increase in pre-filter pressure of 4psi after 6k miles. Don't have enough data to tell you what the average rate would be, but the more fuel you move the more often your filter needs cleaned/replaced plain and simple. On the extreme side of the spectrum Fore has seen a clogged filter create a 40psi loss. Yup, your seeing your 40psi at the rail but your fuel pump is putting out 80psi to get it through the filter, talk about flow loss and dumping heat into the fuel. (more on fuel temp in a sec)

-Fuel line configuration/size. 5/16"-3/8" fuel line will have a pressure loss from friction/bends of about 1psi for every 5-6ft of line. Nuff said.

Injector filter screens (note not all injectors come with pre-filter screens) Self-explanatory.

So in summary even in a new/healthy system on average your fuel pump is putting out 3-5psi more than what your seeing at the rail and in a few years time you could be double that 6-10psi loss. Remember the higher the pump outlet pressure the less flow you get.

Fuel temperature. Fuel is a fluid just like air. The colder the air the denser the molecules and more energy per volume. Gas behaves the exact same way. The colder the fuel the denser and more energy you get per volume. So less fuel consumed. So some stats for ya, an increase of 50 degrees in fuel temperature can mean a flow loss/more pressure requirement of 10-15%. For reference a twin 465 pump return setup with both pumps on full time on a 80 degree day can see fuel temps of 160-180 degrees at the rails within 20 minutes of operation. This is sitting idling/low speed operation. Keeping base pressure low, keeping filter clean, providing adequate wring to the pumps, staggering pumps on and off routing lines away from heat sources or even a return line fuel cooler are all things to consider.

Static... Static? WTF? Yeah static, as fuel changes speed and temperature and travels you create a static charge which can affect combustion. In a purpose built race car this can mean 50rwhp! Known by race teams and making its way down to the average auto enthusiast over the past few years. A lot of fuel vendors are starting to offer anti-static filters now. I wont go any further into this lol I will say the more I know about fuel systems the more I discover I don't know.


-Charging system health. How old is your battery? What is its cca rating? How clean are the wire terminals? How well is your battery grounded to the chassis? What voltage does your alternator put out? What stock or aftermarket loads do you have on your cars electrical system?
Yes running ac and blaring your radio can effect fuel output!
Biggest of these is the alternator. Is your alt putting out 13.5 volts or 14.5 volts or somewhere in between? This all affects current draw and pump speed which effects the flow of your fuel pump.

Ensure you have a healthy battery and alternator. Run larger gauge wiring from a dedicated source to your fuel pump. Ensure your cars electrical loads are not over taxing the charging system. Nuff said.

-Fuel pump life. Fuel pumps are wear items! They do not last forever. As they wear performance goes down. The wear rate is at its highest when the pump is new. The fuel pump will never flow as much as it did the first day you put it in the car and run it on the dyno. In the first 1-2 years the fuel pump can loose as much as 10-15% flow from brush wear in the motor. The hotter/bigger the pump the more drastic this is. Your older 6-8 pole 255lph 8amp pump motors lasts longer than a dual channel 10-11 pole 450lph 20amp pump motor. Plain and simple. Brush wear at the commutator and coil/magnet strength all wear over time. Good news is this wear seems to level out and is not linear.

What does this mean. A big 400-450lph pump will see a flow loss of 10-15% in 1-2 years from wear. A Smaller pump may take 4-5 years to see this wear. And a fuel pump will eventually fail and need replaced. If you use lots of smaller pumps they may last you 5-10 years. If you bigger hotter pumps they are only going to last 2-4 years.




All of these factors by themselves seem relatively insignificant. Start adding any number of them together and you can be taxing your system and be making less power or running a higher duty cycle, or pegging an injector or fuel pump or loosing fuel pressure, or have a lean condition etc.

To put it in perspective you can have a 50% loss in fuel flow in your system in only a few years if you don't stay on top of things!
Don't be reactive to your fuel system. Don't wait till something goes wrong to find out you have been neglecting maintenance of your system.

Enough doom in gloom for this post lol, my next post will put up average power levels achievable for different fuel pumps, injectors and upgrades.

So first off. Don't come at me with the I made 520rwhp with just 39lb injectors and a bap shit. So what. So the stars aligned and you had a generous dyno and a 18.5 volts at the pump and perfect weather. Running shit on the ragged edge is asking for trouble, nor smart for anyway one else to follow because you got lucky and swear by it on YOUR car. This goes for any example and not just the one above. From my previous post you can see that setups can vary as much as 25-50% from one another on the extreme end and in reality on healthy systems 10-20% difference is not uncommon.

Disclaimer. Throw manufactures claims out the window! XXX product will never perform on the car as well as it did in a controlled lab test, period. Nuff said. Yes on a healthy system XXX product should support YYY power on ZZZ setup. That doesn't mean it will when you get it on YOUR car.

These stats will be averages for most power I have seen with some safety put it because I'm not in the business of helping people blow their cars up. These are my numbers that I have seen personally on my car or on cars I have worked on or built systems for or feedback from customers.

Hp numbers are with gasoline.


-10awg wire upgrade to fpdm plug. 8-12% drop in duty cycle. -8 wire a few percent more, if you run two pumps one fpdm, -10 is fine -8 is optimal.

Always run the fuse closer to the power source and always run a larger amperage relay than what you need. My wire setups use a 30amp fuse and a 40amp relay.

10awg power and ground wires from fpdm to fuel hat is good for another 3-5% drop in duty cycle.


16-18volt pump booster. 450-475rwhp. I personally would never run a bap on a stock fuel pump past 475rwhp. It is a temporary solution that's easy to install until you can afford a better solution. Don't install a bap without running a wire upgrade feed for it, period.

Stock 05-10 Fuel Hat

OEM pump. 180-200lph, 375-400rwhp capable on boost. Don't do this!

Walbro 255lph pump. 450-475rwhp capable like the bap.

340lph pump. 525-550rwhp capable. Don't fuck with any brand besides DW or AEM, they are the proven most reliability with quality components. Any other brand is a crap shoot. Wire upgrade required.

Walbro 400lph pump. 575-600rwhp capable. Wire upgrade required.

2 Walbro 255 pumps. 675-700rwhp capable. Wire upgrade required.


600rwhp Returnless Threshold. This is a threshold point in your fuel system. At this level you stock lines, rails and filter become a restriction. Don't twist my words. Yes you can push on with the stock stuff if you have enough pump. But you will gain by replacing them, which plain and simple means they are a restriction, however you want to word it. Deleting the pprv on the hat 2-4% reduction in duty cycle. Replacing the line (8an), filter and rails 24-26% reduction in pump duty cycle.


GT500 fuel system.

OEM pumps. 650rwhp capable. Comes with harness second fpdm and wire/relay upgrade already. A lot claim in can handle more but I have seen them max at 600-625rwhp so I cant justify a higher rating personally.

Two 255 pumps. 700rwhp capable.

Two 340lph pumps. 800rwhp capable. Again AEM or DW, DW are direct fit any other pumps pai to fit but can be done.


You can add a fuel pump booster to any number of these higher flowing pump combos and make and additional 100hp on top in general.


800rwhp Returnless Threshold. My average observed limit for what power you can make on a 3v returnless fuel system. This is regardless of pumps, bap and line/filter/rails upgrades. Don't waste your time and money trying to get anymore than this, just get a return system and be done.


Return fuel system. You do make a little more power per pump than in a returnless sytems due to the design and regulator returning fuel to the tank. I wont relist any of the pumps I already spoke about. Keep in mind as you run higher power numbers your system can start to vary more wildly from the average.


2 400lph pumps. 1000rwhp capable

2 450lph pumps. 1200rwhp capable

3 255 pumps. 1000rwhp capable.

3 340lph pumps. 1200rwhp capable.

3 400lph pumps. 1600rwhp capable.

3 450lph pumps. 1800rwhp capable.


8an or 10an. Planning on more than 1000rwhp? Then go 10an, otherwise 8an it up.

10awg minimum wire for return pumps, consider 8awg for more than 2 pumps.


That's it for this one will add some stuff as I think of it. I will make another post later about injectors and then e85.

To be sure it's understood above Jermey is safe limit vs ragged edge?


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Thats subjective to your setup and how much wiggle room your comfortable with it. These are average achievable numbers. In general a turbo car will be on the higher end a blower car on the lower end.

On a return-less setup most will put a safe max duty cycle in the 80-90% range to give you that 10-20% overhead. Where as you could consider 95-100% duty cycle ragged edge since you could max the pump under certain conditions and as your systems health degrades.

I see injectors get pushed more since pressure pre injector determines actual flow rate. I will only rate injectors at their designed base delta pressure which is 39.15psi(ford) to 43psi(gm). On average an injector max duty cycles is 90-93% of advertised flow rate. Anymore than that an the injector will becomes static (order to open/pulse again is given before the previous pulse shuts). When injectors become static you start getting afr fluctuation from a loss of flow control, this can turn for the worse if delta pressure drops during this time as well.

Injectors. Gasoline ratings on a boosted setup. Most commonly used injector sizes.

I highly recommend reading this link if you want to learn more about selecting injectors.

http://www.fordracingparts.com/download/charts/Fuel_Injectors_and_Adaptors.pdf



Ford/Bosch 24lb. Newer design, available in ev6 body/internal design with uscar connector. Excellent spray pattern for 2v/3v/4v heads. Great control/mileage. Original equipment on the 3v.

Ford/Bosch 39lb. 20+ year old ev1 body/internal design injector which can be found with either jetronic or uscar connector. Subpar pulse angle and control by todays standard. Cheap entry level injectors with fair control/mileage. 450-475rwp rated. Don't even recommend using them on a 3v personally or at all for the matter. A lot of imitation versions of these out there as well.

Ford/Bosch 47lb. Newer design, available in ev6 or ev14 body/internal design with uscar connector. Excellent spray pattern for 2v/3v/4v heads. Great control/mileage. 550-600rwhp rated. Excellent injector choice for a stock block boosted setup.

Ford/Bosch 55lb (580cc). New design, available in ev14 uscar connector. OE on the 2013 GT500. Requires height spacers for GT use. Excellent spray pattern for 2v/3v/4v heads. Great control/mileage. 675rwhp rated.

Ford/Siemens Deka 60lb (630cc). 15+ year old design available in ev6 body with uscar connector. Fair spray pattern/mileage and good control. 650-700rwhp rated. Common/good choice still used widely today.

Bosch 65lb (650cc). Newer design, available in ev6 or ev14 body/internal design with uscar connector. Excellent spray pattern for 2v/3v/4v heads. Great control/mileage. 700rwhp rated. Less commonly used injector due to higher price over the SD 60lb.

Bosch/ID/DW 750cc. Newer design, cary over from ls/gm world. Available in ev14 compact( 39mm ls) or ev6/ev14 body/internal design with uscar connector. Excellent spray pattern for 2v/3v/4v heads. Great control/mileage. 800rwhp rated. Less commonly used injector due to higher price point.

Ford/Siemens Deka 80lb (875cc). 15+ year old design available in ev6 body with uscar connector. Fair spray pattern/mileage and poor control at low pulse widths requires more fines to tune. 900rwhp rated. Common choice still used today due to cheaper price point compared to other injectors in this size range. I do not personally recommend them.

Bosch/ID/DW 95lb (1000cc). Newer design, available in ev6 or ev14 body/internal design with uscar connector. DW1000's are for the 2016 Cobrajet. Excellent spray pattern for 2v/3v/4v heads. Available in 4 hole or single ball orifice tip. Excellent control/mileage (single ball orifice tip being optimal). 1000rwhp rated (850rwhp e85). Excellent injector choice for any built motor application up to this power rating.

Bosch 127lb/ID1300 (1330cc). Newer design, carry over from BMW world design. Available in ev6/ev14 body/internal design with uscar connector. Excellent spray pattern for 2v/3v/4v heads. Great control/mileage. 1200rwhp rated (1000rwhp e85). Less commonly used injector due to greatly higher price point over the 1000cc. Common choice for E85 use due to all stainless steel internals.

Bosch 160lb/ID1700 (1700cc). Modern design, available in ev1,ev6 or ev14 body/internal design with uscar or jetronic connector. Excellent spray pattern for 2v/3v/4v heads. Excellent control/mileage in e85 (fair with gasoline) 1800rwhp rated (1200rwhp e85). Not to commonly used due to similar pricing as the 2000cc.

Bosch 210lb/ID2000 (2225cc). The biggest bitch on the block. Carry over from the import world. Available only in ev14 compact and denso connector so spacers and plug adaptors required for ford application. Good control/mileage in e85, fair to poor in gas. 2000rwhp+ rated (1600rwhp+ in e85). Controlable up to 100psi base pressure (3350cc). 3700cc max flow rating at 130psi base pressure. $$$$$$$$

Jeremy,
That's a fuck ton of info.
Looks like I'm golden with the FORE setup that Bobby set me up with.
Thanks!

Thanks Jeremy and Bruce!!!! That will be plenty of info for the article I'm writing.

Good stuff !!


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Great info all wrapped up in one thread. Mods should move this to Tech.

Great Thread, subscribed.
This should indeed be a sticky in the tech section.

OK JeremyH

I am new to this forum and this kind of information is why I joined. You guys are very knowledgeable and straight to the point. If this question should be in a different area just let me know. I have been searching for answers on here and I think I found them in this thread. This is the set up I had before I started my upgrades.

06 Mustang GT with - Procharger Stage 2 Intercooled System w/ 39# injectors, , Comp Cams Phaser Limiter Kit, Muthur Thumper cams, Ken Bell Boost-a-Pump, Aeromotive 325 Stealth fuel pump, factory manifolds w/ Pypes Off Road X-pipe. It was Dyno Tuned and was at 376 RWHP / 362 RWT which seems low to me.

This is what I am working on right now, mostly done but not Dyno tuned yet. After I get all this finished I will have it taken to the Dyno shop on a roll back.

I am adding Ford Racing Intake and Ford Racing Twin 62mm Throttle Body, KOOKS 1-5/8's long tube headers with high-flow cats, Roush Extreme Exhaust, Changing to Detroit Rocker N/A cams.

Questions I had and Answers I believe I got from your post.

1. Will my fuel system and injectors be able to keep up with what I am doing? I need to chnge to the 47# injectors but my fuel pump and Ken Bell will still work.
2. I do not need to upgrade to the GT500 fuel pump set-up but if I did go with it I would not need the boost-a-pump.
3. Will it make 500 - 550 RWHP? I believe it will.

Question 3 is for fun but question 1 and 2 is legitimate. What do you think?