Cam swap WITHOUT removing followers?

Gentlemen, I'm looking for some experience... (couldn't find much using the "search" feature).

I'm planning a swap to some Brenspeed Detroit Rocker cams on my nearly stock '06 4.6/3V 5-speed. I'd like to perform the cam change myself, to save a little cash. Some cam-install instructions require the removal of some/all of the cam followers.
Recently I watched a video of a mechanic chaging cams WITHOUT removing any followers. He just gradually and evenly drew down on the cam cap bolts in a pattern starting in the center (similar to a head-torquing sequence). Now this seems like the way to change cams. No spring compressor needed. No time wasted messing with followers. The only special tool required would be the chain wedge tool.
Does anyone have any first hand experience (positive or negative) with this install method?

Any help is greatly appreciated.
Nick

I've done it a few times. Worked fine for me.

That's how we swapped my cams the "first" time. Spring compressor is was faster and easier.

Not sure what the question is...if the #1 piston is TDC on the passender side the followers/rockers should stay were they belong but if they fall off you just put it back on.

There are numerous threads on here about cam swapping and if you find a thread with the video from the comcast address in it it give a very detailed process on how to do the swap and the order in which you loosen each cam cover bolt a quarter turn at a time.

Concur with the statement a spring compressor is not needed as long as you are using NSR cams.

You do not NEED the wedge tool either, I have done cam swaps with out it, a 2 ft piece of garden hose shoved in there works just as well....use a marker to mark the phaser and the sprocket as backup to ensure it has not moved.

http://home.comcast.net/~cookpaging/hammeron/cams/hotrodcams.html

All you need....follow the directions and you will be fine....you will have to get some RTV to use when you re-install the VC's, the VC gaskets are reusable, you will be told to get new cam phaser bolts and recommend using a lube on the new cams before they go in...also plan on an oil change after the cam swap.

Newman said:

That's how we swapped my cams the "first" time. Spring compressor is was faster and easier.

Click to expand...

Why would you use a spring compressor on NSR cams?

It was quicker, so you didn't have to tighten and loosen cap cams so slowly. It's was just to get the 3 followers out, the ones putting pressure on the cams .

As previously said just follow the proper sequence to loosen the cam caps 1/4 turn at a time.And a cam wedge tool or a rubber hose. I believe Tad over at Freedom Racing had a video on how to do it as did Comp when they were show casing their Mother Thumpers.

Thanks for the replies. The cam I'm looking at does not require a valve spring change, so I will be leaving the stock ones installed.

Greg, my question is really: Why bother removing the followers at all? It just seems completely unecessary (as long as great care is given while "pulling down" the cam using the caps). I'm not trying to cut any corners, or criticize anyone's input. I'm only making sure that I haven't overlooked something important. Garden hose chain wedge? Love it! You just saved me 80 bucks. Thank you.

Again, thanks for the input. This forum always proves very helpful.

Nick

That's all we did the first time we did it, just take your time untightening the caps, easy as that . Did have a problem z

You MUST either remove the followers putting tension on the cam or slowly raise up the cam; some of the followers have pressure/tension on them, and you have to remove that tension. The other followers are just sitting there.

When you re-install the cams, you'll have to also make sure the followers stay in place if using the tighten-cam-down-gradually approach; some of the like to fall out

I've done them both ways. The risk involvled with keeping all the followers in place is damage to a cam cap. Specifically #1 that retains the cam. Keep your eye on it while tightening down, make sure the cam retainer is in the right place common to the cam. There is so much spring tension that it's easy to not notice something out of alignment. It's happened to several on this forum.

It can be fixed but it's best to be avoided.

I have done several cam swaps, I always remove the followers at least when putting the new cams in. Simply because I believe it throws the torque off when tightening the cam caps. I have always had fear of the cam caps not being properly torqued do to the valve spring tension on it and them backing off or being to tight on the cams and really messing something up. I leave the plugs out throw a long screw driver down it to make sure the piston is at the bottom of the cylinder and pop them in real quick and move on to the next cylinder. Doesnt take very long that way but you do have to buy the valve spring compressor

Great advice through this post if you are doing a Cam install yourself, me personally I would just spend the money to get it done but I would change the springs and phasers. This is a future mod for me.

Thanks for all the input guys, I appreciate it. I'm probably going to pull the trigger on some Detroit Rockers, and install them myself. I'm a hot rod guy, so having someone else install these for me is a gearhead sin. I'll definitely use the "hose trick" instead of the cam wedge tool (how in the hell can they justify charging $90 for that tool?). I'm still on the fence with the spring compressor tool though. I hate to blast $180 on a tool that I'll use only once, especially when the job can be safely done without it.

Again, thanks guys...
-Nick

Good call on the garden hose and save yourself the money on the spring compressor, no need for it!

When you do the install, follow the instructions on the comcast link and if you run into issues ask those that have done them and we will help you out.

Should the crank timing mark be in the 1 o'clock or 7 o'clock position if removing/installing the cams w/out a compressor tool (using the "cam cap bolt 1/4 turn" method and leaving the followers in place)?

Per the regular (spring compressor tool) procedure.. it mentions first positioning the crank timing mark in the 1 oclock position to verify where the #1 cyl cam lobes should be. Then to move it to the 7 o'clock position to remove the 3 followers on each side. Then to remove the cam (while still at the 7 o'clock position).
When not removing the followers, Do I also put it at 7 o'clock or just leave it at 1 o'clock when removing/installing the cams (doing the "1/4 turn, no spring compressor" method)?

Just trying to verify in what position the cam should be at which would leave the least amount of pressure on the followers (or least amount of followers with pressure on them), when doing the cam install/removal w/out the compressor tool/leaving the followers in.
Thank you.

the reason for positioning the cam in that location is to allow you enough room to remove the follower without the cam lobe interfering (when using the spring compressor and removing the followers)...

Like mentioned earlier, be careful removing the cam with the followers and all that tension on the front cam cap or you will be welding like the pic Bruce provided or replacing that cap.

crownaviation said:

the reason for positioning the cam in that location .

Click to expand...

Positioning the cam in what location (1 or 7 o'clock)? So I should leave the crank pulley timing mark in the 1 o'clock position when removing the cam w/out removing the followers? Thanks

cf99gt said:

Positioning the cam in what location (1 or 7 o'clock)? So I should leave the crank pulley timing mark in the 1 o'clock position when removing the cam w/out removing the followers? Thanks

Click to expand...

It depends on which cam. All you have to do is look at the lobes. You want the cam positioned so the fewest amount of lobes are putting pressure on the followers.

Thanks Bruce. Wasent sure if that was the intent of the "1 o'clock/7 o'clock" cam position for "fewest amount lobes putting pressure on the followers".
I'll just visually verify it on the removal of the stock cams and install of the Detroit Rocker cams. Thanks again guys. -Chris

Yes, you can remove and swap cams without removing followers. Search my name and you will find some of the posts with pics I have while I was in the process of 2 cam swaps. Like everyone said before this post. YOU MUST evenly loosin the cam cap bolts in the reverse order of tighting. MAKE SURE YOU KEEP ALL PRESSURE EQUAL by little turns on each bolt. It will take a little while longer doing this but you won't have to worry about dropping a valve or a keeper. Oh and make sure you try to position the cam in such a way that the lobes isn't puttling a lot of down pressure on the followers. There will be a happy medium where most of the lobs are either in the going down position or comning up position and none is completly pushing down. Very common sense stuff here, once you get into it all this info will make sense.