Coyote Catastrophic Failure

[stkjock]

guys - if a post is out of line and off topic, don't respond, don't quote, report it and let the mods clean it up as needed. We can't see every post. TIA


Also - please try and stay on topic in the tech sections.

 

[blackgt87]

Fucking guilty until proven innocent I guess...

Keep up the thread and the tactful responses OP, there are alot of us that want to see the project all the way though, not hear speculation about what the tuner may or may not have done, especially when there isn't any REAL way to prove it.

Haters gonna hate!

You got it bro.

guys - if a post is out of line and off topic, don't respond, don't quote, report it and let the mods clean it up as needed. We can't see every post. TIA


Also - please try and stay on topic in the tech sections.

Thank you.

 

[gtmiller1001]

The op says he made about 20 over his previous 600. So where's the cutoff for needing fuel??

I'm not basing my fuel system comments based on my current setup. I started out with the stock Roush tune and worked my way up, pulley by pulley, mod by mod. You guys are playing with fire.

Well, if you think he's playing with fire running 600 RWHP w/no BAP, you think you're playing it safe with 14# on a stock block?? Even running E85 I'd say that's running on the edge.

 

[Riptide]

They are all ticking time bombs when you start almost doubling the rwhp.

I agree though some people are convinced that a stock coyote will never blow up at 600whp unless it's due to detonation - period.

Playing with boost is playing with fire IMO. Forged engine or not. If you run pump fuel in there it's like a box of chocolates. You never know what you're gonna get.

 

[DTony]

I had to make another post just to quote this. This REALLY pisses me off. You have no idea what he did, and you cannot say "he would never let it leave like that". Would you say he would let it leave with the worse part throttle surge ever? It would be literally impossible to transition the car from vacuum to boost at anything besides WOT and not feel it. There is NO WAY he drove my car and didn't feel it. Which means he flat out lied about driving my car for two days, or flat out lied and said the car ran good.

Please don't make comments about what he would do and would never do, because he has already done things to the contrary of your obviously glowing review of him. And that has nothing to do with the blown motor or how much timing or fuel system. It's flat out bullshit.

You are acting like a child, you post on here then whine like hell if people don't agree. Maybe you should just delete your thread since you obviously can't tolerate others opinions.

 

[2c5s]

Well, if you think he's playing with fire running 600 RWHP w/no BAP, you think you're playing it safe with 14# on a stock block?? Even running E85 I'd say that's running on the edge.

Absolutely I am on the edge. Never said it wasn't regarding MY combination. And I'm at 14.6#. I also have a built motor waiting on a stand when and if this one lets go so I can really up the boost.

This car also gets roll raced ALMOST every weekend from around 50 to 150+ mph. That's a long 5th gear pull at high load..... My point, it's not a dyno queen, the car gets run and run hard, period.

With that being said, I have over 16,500 miles on this combo. E85 makes power, it's also a very cold fuel, I also run straight meth in the blower to cool it off, I also have a triple pump fuel system. I also have one of the best tuners in the country IMHO of course. With that being said, I also know that fuel, in proper volume and octane, with a good tune are the keys to having these motors live. It's common sense, yet people refuse to spend $250 on a BAP to help insure their motor IN CASE the tuner makes an error and/or conditions aren't 100%. For anyone to say tuners should always be correct, that's why I pay them. Get real. Nobody is perfect, including the person making that statement.

Let me also say, the tuning software for the the Copperhead ECU is dogshit compared to what's available for GM LS motors or the ricer crowd for instance. The Copperhead ECU is very good, but it still does funky stuff where the tuner can't control it, yet. And that's a fact.

BTW, I live in S. Ca., 30 mins. from KB. I'm very aware of how KB comes up with their tunes. I also know who writes their tunes. I also know "his" reputation for running things on the ragged edge and lunching motors. And yes they make power, unfortunately they don't live very long.

OP, looking at KB's website, they state for your "kit" running 10# of boost, the minimum octane rating is 94. Didn't you say you ran 93?

Now you know what happens when you add up all your little changes.

 

[Riptide]

Ken Christley is their tuner isn't he?

 

[2c5s]

Ken Christley is their tuner isn't he?

Dig deeper.

 

[19COBRA93]

OP, looking at KB's website, they state for your "kit" running 10# of boost, the minimum octane rating is 94. Didn't you say say you ran 93?

94 octane? Their kit is designed to work with 1% of the population. Sweet.

 

[2c5s]

Originally Posted by 2c5s
OP, looking at KB's website, they state for your "kit" running 10# of boost, the minimum octane rating is 94. Didn't you say say you ran 93?

94 octane? Their kit is designed to work with 1% of the population. Sweet.

Just say'n....

It can be 100% of the population. You buy better fuel or use an additive like Torco..... or you don't run the boost, or you add meth, or you bump the fuel system..... Either way, it's the owners responsibility, period.

 

[blackgt87]

Absolutely I am on the edge. Never said it wasn't regarding MY combination. And I'm at 14.6#. I also have a built motor waiting on a stand when and if this one lets go so I can really up the boost.

This car also gets roll raced ALMOST every weekend from around 50 to 150+ mph. That's a long 5th gear pull at high load..... My point, it's not a dyno queen, the car gets run and run hard, period.

With that being said, I have over 16,500 miles on this combo. E85 makes power, it's also a very cold fuel, I also run straight meth in the blower to cool it off, I also have a triple pump fuel system. I also have one of the best tuners in the country IMHO of course. With that being said, I also know that fuel, in proper volume and octane, with a good tune are the keys to having these motors live. It's common sense, yet people refuse to spend $250 on a BAP to help insure their motor IN CASE the tuner makes an error and/or conditions aren't 100%. For anyone to say tuners should always be correct, that's why I pay them. Get real. Nobody is perfect, including the person making that statement.

Let me also say, the tuning software for the the Copperhead ECU is dogshit compared to what's available for GM LS motors or the ricer crowd for instance. The Copperhead ECU is very good, but it still does funky stuff where the tuner can't control it, yet. And that's a fact.

BTW, I live in S. Ca., 30 mins. from KB. I'm very aware of how KB comes up with their tunes. I also know who writes their tunes. I also know "his" reputation for running things on the ragged edge and lunching motors. And yes they make power, unfortunately they don't live very long.

OP, looking at KB's website, they state for your "kit" running 10# of boost, the minimum octane rating is 94. Didn't you say you ran 93?

Now you know what happens when you add up all your little changes.

I highlighted the first thing in bold because it's 100% true and part of the reason I had problems, although I agree with most of your post also.

I told Kenne Bell I only had access to 93 octane, and only ran Shell 93 octane, they were aware of that when making all recommendations for the kit and they were also aware of it before I gave them my strategy so they may have compensated for that in their tune because they said it would be fine. Again you keep assuming I slapped the kit on and didn't ask anybody shit and went out making 6th gear pulls in 80 degree weather on 89 octane or some shit. Funny that you mention that though, because my car ran for a long ass time on their tune but not long on the custom tune that should have taken that into consideration (IE if their tune had too much timing this tuner should have removed some).

Also I don't think a BAP in this case would have given more wiggle room, bigger injectors would have I think, but not a BAP on 47's.

Since the bottom end is forged I want to run 13 psi on 104 octane Torco mix, so I am getting 72's and a BAP before the key gets turned anyway.

Also don't think I am some clown who wants to run everything on the ragged edge, I'm all about (admittedly now more than before) safety and having a little buffer, its just that after asking people questions before I thought I HAD that kind of safety in the kit and in the tune. I think it is evident now, that I did not.

 

[KungFuHamster]

Again I don't feel like I "skimped" on anything. I will explain this again... The KB kit came with those injectors I didn't pick them out, and it did not come with a BAP. I bolted their kit on an otherwise stock car, and the only thing my car had that was different from a bone stock car was no cats. And I told Kenne Bell that and they said the kit will work fine. I get it tuned for the fucking rear o2's and idle and here we are.



I think the damage to my engine was not from some simple aspect of tuning like ignition timing or air fuel ratio. I think it was from Jeff being unfamiliar with the drive by wire settings of the coyote. He made comments about the effective area of the throttle body in KB's tune and how it was double what a normal one would be. He made comments about not understanding their DBW settings and saying "they do some goofy stuff" and that he would have to study them and figure out why they did what they did. That was days before I took my car in so I had assumed (I know right) that he had a grip on that stuff when I dropped my car off. The surge, the not launching at the track, the fact that it was slower than KB's tune, and the subsequent damage to the engine IMO are due to the drive by wire settings. Tonys car is boosted before the throttle body not draw through like mine so its totally different. Unless I logged the surge or logged the bog at the track I have no idea if the car was dangerously lean during those times or not. I know that is partially my fault. But I was caught way off guard because I expected my car to be faster and run perfect when I got it back. I had no idea until I talked to another tuner that the "fall on its face" thing at the track could be the ECU pulling fuel for torque management if the tune wasn't done properly. Like I said I could have done things better, I could have logged it more or not taken it to the track until it was perfect. But I had no idea those driveability issues could be dangerous. Thats why you pay a professional tuner to take care of that aspect for you. In my case I picked someone who was simply not cut out to tune this combo.

At least I learned a lot from this, I'm not just slapping it back together and heading down the same road.

I wasn't trying to suggest that you were "skimping" on the fuel system and i apologize if that was how you took it. I was merely trying to say that when adding boost, and putting a blower on a car with that kits tune thats what the kit is built for.
When one starts altering things then that changes everything.

all i was saying was when the time comes to add a blower on my car i will spend extra $ on more fuel system to maintain that nice margin of safety...i honestly think that anyone who adds boost should always do this.

 

[blackgt87]

I wasn't trying to suggest that you were "skimping" on the fuel system and i apologize if that was how you took it. I was merely trying to say that when adding boost, and putting a blower on a car with that kits tune thats what the kit is built for.
When one starts altering things then that changes everything.

all i was saying was when the time comes to add a blower on my car i will spend extra $ on more fuel system to maintain that nice margin of safety...i honestly think that anyone who adds boost should always do this.

I agree.

 

[Bigmack2012Gb]

19 degrees of timing and 10 lbs of boost? I'm not a tuner or anything of the sort but that seems like a lot to me. Sorry to hear about your car man i was hoping to maybe see you out at a local get together or something and see how i stacked up with my centri.

 

[blackgt87]

19 degrees of timing and 10 lbs of boost? I'm not a tuner or anything of the sort but that seems like a lot to me. Sorry to hear about your car man i was hoping to maybe see you out at a local get together or something and see how i stacked up with my centri.

Don't worry progress is being made. I'm hoping for a couple more weeks to get it running, I just have been waiting on parts and my head to get repaired.

 

[blackgt87]

I spent most of my free time yesterday just organizing the garage. I had shit everywhere from pulling the motor and tearing it down.

I did take my brand new oil pump apart to put the TSS billet gears in it. Mike @ powerhouse told me they just drop right in, so thats what I did.

Is the outer gear supposed to spin free? Mine did after I got it seated down in there, but I don't know if bolting the cover back on holds it or not. The old one spun free with the cover off so I think its ok.

Heres what they look like down in there

Heres what they looked like to me

Anybody know the torque specs on the bolts that hold the pump together?

Here's my oil pan, I never poured the rest of the oil out to look in there

Heres a closer (and edited) shot of the crap in the bottom, that piece with the logo was pretty much sitting right there in the middle lol

Stock flywheel that I won't be using

2012 vs 2013 head bolts...I think I said "wow" outloud twice

I was hoping to get the heads back today but I dunno if they will be done. I should get the oil pump and pan and stuff on later.

 

[stkjock]

Last warning. Next member who ducks up this thread gets a week in pink.

I've cleaned the thread up twice now. I best not have to a third time.

 

[5PointOHNO]

Does anyone know why the head bolts would be so different from my12 to my13?

 

[01bluesnake]

My guess would be the revised block ford is using for the '13

 

[blackgt87]

Does anyone know why the head bolts would be so different from my12 to my13?

My guess would be the revised block ford is using for the '13

Yeah its because the '13 block is different. Something about water passages and "more meat in certain places". I don't really know if its better or worse or really no different, but I doubt its worse than the '12.