Watts Link vrs Panhard Bar "aka..Old Reliable"

[sholzer]

Here is another video of the rear end with a panhard moving through its arc/deflection on the stock 255 pirellis.

 

[Department Of Boost]

Whoops, sorry, BMR panhard bar:

http://vorshlag.smugmug.com/Racing-...99281_2z8QJb#!i=2664718105&k=Mz2bTZt&lb=1&s=A

Wow! That's impressive.

Do you know which one of their bars it was? The one with the adjuster in the middle was always a bit scary.

 

[Department Of Boost]

Here is another video of the rear end with a panhard moving through its arc/deflection on the stock 255 pirellis.

Is that a stock PHB?

 

[sholzer]

Is that a stock PHB?

Yea that was still the stock Panhard bar

 

[csamsh]

Wow! That's impressive.

Do you know which one of their bars it was? The one with the adjuster in the middle was always a bit scary.

Yeah it's the one with the adjuster in the middle



Liberal use of red loctite has made it stay put to the point where I don't notice it. It doesn't make any noise, and the bushings look good after ~20k miles. I've actually been remarkably satisfied with it in every respect other than that it's not a Watt's Link.

 

[Department Of Boost]

Yeah it's the one with the adjuster in the middle

http://www.flickr.com/photos/98619788@N08/9525732847/

Liberal use of red loctite has made it stay put to the point where I don't notice it. It doesn't make any noise, and the bushings look good after ~20k miles. I've actually been remarkably satisfied with it in every respect other than that it's not a Watt's Link.

You lost me. Was it loose in the video? And red Loctite cured it? Or does it still deflect that much with everything tight/Loctite'd (IDK how you would spell that).

 

[csamsh]

You lost me. Was it loose in the video? And red Loctite cured it? Or does it still deflect that much with everything tight/Loctite'd (IDK how you would spell that).

It has been tight for a year. It was "working properly" in the video. It just deflects that much.

 

[dontlifttoshift]

Despite what I see in both of those videos, I can't believe the PHB deflecting that much. The bushings would have to collapse to essentially nothing and then rebound to their normal shape.

Marks video is shot from the passenger side with the BMR PHB. Scholzers is shot from the drivers side with a stock PHB. The deflection in Mark's car looks worse than a stock one to me. I don't think for a second that the BMR bar flexes more than the stock one. Too many variables there to really conclude anything between speed and grip adding up to actual lateral acceleration differences between the two cars.

Anyone have a similar video with a watts link installed?

 

[csamsh]

The deflection looks decently similar to me...different angles though, that could be misleading. Also, I would venture to say that my car may be making more g's- 285 RS3's vs. stock P Zeros.

SOMETHING is moving. My guess is vertical movements causing the panhard to sweep out an arc, thus displacing the axle.

Also- the rear tires were at 31psi in the video of my car

 

[Whiskey11]

Despite what I see in both of those videos, I can't believe the PHB deflecting that much. The bushings would have to collapse to essentially nothing and then rebound to their normal shape.

Marks video is shot from the passenger side with the BMR PHB. Scholzers is shot from the drivers side with a stock PHB. The deflection in Mark's car looks worse than a stock one to me. I don't think for a second that the BMR bar flexes more than the stock one. Too many variables there to really conclude anything between speed and grip adding up to actual lateral acceleration differences between the two cars.

Anyone have a similar video with a watts link installed?

Turn your sound off, my GoPro sucks...




Fays 2 Watts link with my old suspension.

 

[2013DIBGT]

Looks like a pretty noticeable difference between the Watts and Panhard in horizontal movement of the rear axle. At least you know the Watts is working as advertised.

 

[Whiskey11]

Looks like a pretty noticeable difference between the Watts and Panhard in horizontal movement of the rear axle. At least you know the Watts is working as advertised.

It doesn't look that different from under the car though:

 

[csamsh]

Looks like a pretty noticeable difference between the Watts and Panhard in horizontal movement of the rear axle. At least you know the Watts is working as advertised.

I was going to say just the opposite actually...there are three very different suspension packages between the videos we've posted, but IMO the Watt's video doesn't show a ton less lateral displacement than that panhard videos do.

 

[Whiskey11]

I was going to say just the opposite actually...there are three very different suspension packages between the videos we've posted, but IMO the Watt's video doesn't show a ton less lateral displacement than that panhard videos do.

Don't confuse axle articulation with lateral displacement. When the axle articulates (such as in a slalom) some of the movement is going to be from the axle swinging in an arc rather than from the bushings deflecting. There is some of that in all of the videos posted so far.

 

[dontlifttoshift]

I was going to say just the opposite actually...there are three very different suspension packages between the videos we've posted, but IMO the Watt's video doesn't show a ton less lateral displacement than that panhard videos do.

I thought it was just me, glad you said it.

Thanks for posting that Whiskey!

I don't think we are witnessing any phenomenon here, its just solid rear axle suspension in action.

 

[2013DIBGT]

Dunno, maybe my eyes are fooling me but I don't see any point where the top of the rear tire extends beyond the fender well on the Watts car. The Panhard bar car looks to wander far enough to allow you to almost see the tread pattern of the top of the tire.

It almost scary how much the rear end is flopping around on the vid of the stock car. Maybe it was the lighting of that video that helps because there was a very clear view at all times of what was going on with it and no shadows involved.

 

[SoundGuyDave]

Watching the three undercar vids, I just don't see where the Watts has done all that much. Referring in particular to the third vid (autocross, stock PHB), if you keep your eyes centered on the diff cover, it just doesn't seem to wander back and forth all that much, at least not appreciably more than the first (Watts, city street) vid. The one that everybody's freaking out on has an unstable camera mount, and also a poor perspective since the rim itself is hidden at times in shadow and/or tire carcass deformation. Neither the Watts nor the PHB can control carcass motion, that's a function of tire pressure and construction.

Sorry for the pic size, but the resolution was needed... Look at the two front tires. The driver's side shows the carcass nearly peeled off the edge of the rim, while the passenger's side (with nearly no load on it at all) shows the normal amount of rim recess into the tire. From what I was able to assess, it's showing something like .75" of carcass deflection. 275/35 Hoosier R6, 18x9.5 wheels, data says 1.4G.

Link to the original... Click the magnifying glass in the lower-right corner twice to get to the hi-res version.

 

[csamsh]

Yeah here's a good "carcass shot" from the same day as that video:

 

[Whiskey11]

SoundGuyDave: That video and the other PHB video are with a stock car, bone stock down to the 235/50/18 BFG KDWS all seasons we all love to hate and was my first year autocrossing so chances are I was slow and had relatively low grip, exactly where the OEM stuff would show little issue. The route for both street videos is the same though and if it wasnt such a PITA to get to, I would do more videos like it!

 

[Vorshlag-Fair]

The video of Mark's car with the BMR Panhard bar is showing LOTS of axle displacement. The shots Whiskey showed with the Fays2 Watts shows almost none. But they are different cameras, different cars.

We're wrapping up the front aero re-work to my TT3 Mustang this week and doing a track test this weekend. This car has a WL Watts so I'll stick a GoPro on the rear fender and see what we can see with 315 Hoosiers, at speed with more grip and some extra aero loading.