Watts Link vrs Panhard Bar "aka..Old Reliable"

[2013DIBGT]

Hello,

I had an interesting conversation today with a local tuner/race car builder about wanting to install a Watts link on my car. This shop has a few competitive mustangs that run in the SCCA series races. I will leave the shop name anonymous as I'm not interested in starting a fight.

When I mentioned the interest I had with installing a Watts Link the person was very quick to shoot down the idea claiming that an adjustable Panhard bar was the only way to go and to not waste my money. I was "taken a back" to say the least!

I kept my mouth shut and continued the conversation anyway because I certainly don't build or race cars for a living and who am I to argue. But, regardless of my occupation I feel I have done what I would consider an excessive amount of research on these two devices and all signs and indications pointed to the Watts link as being a superior device under almost every circumstance.

So my question is this. Should I run the other way from this tuner as fast as possible or could their side of the argument actually be valid and worth closer consideration?

I'm not sure if they feel this way because they can't run a Watts link in their class of racing or what but I know in my case I have no one to answer to in terms of rule books since I don't compete at that level.

Please post your thoughts..Thanks

 

[NUTCASE]

I am not a pro at the watts link conversation, but I can say there has been more than one tuner that has made my eyes go crossed and made me run for the hills.

 

[Gray Ghost GT]

The panhard bar tends to bend under raised lateral loads, as evidenced by multiple failures in the Miller Cup Series FR500s which have to retain the OEM unit by the rules.

The Watts Link makes the roll center fixed as it does not move up and down with ride height changes due to braking, acceleration and road undulation. This creates more consistent tire loading, which yields more predictable behavior.

The consistent roll center height definitely improve transitional response and build confidence in the driver. A Watts Link is ideal for any sort of performance driving involving lateral loads, especially if the car needs to make rapid left right transitions. The more esses, the more a Watts link is favored.

 

[908ssp]

A good watts link system is better than a panhard bar, a bad watts link system is worse. A watts link won't autmatically give you faster lap times and that is what racers worry about. Do you need a watts link if you are running 550 foot pound springs in the front and 350 foot pound springs in the rear? Probably not what about 200 fronts and 150 rears yes that then it would feel better but the stiffer car would probably be faster on the track.

Anyway there is a lot to consider. No one piece works all the time except maybe tires. Better tires always works.

 

[Dubstep Shep]

There are only two forms of racing where a PHB is superior to a watts link.

Drag racing because of weight.
NASCAR because PHBs improve handling in one direction. Great for going in circles.

 

[mpm_1]

I looked at all the designs I could find out there and ended up going with the Whiteline version. No regrets and have been very pleased with the results.

 

[2013DIBGT]

So far, it sounds like I may want to lace up my running shoes.

Thanks for the opinions and confirmation that at least I am not completely delusional in my thoughts on the Watts link being a better choice for non NASCAR applications

 

[2013MustangGT]

You mentioned SCCA. I don't believe you can run the Whiteline Watts in the SCCA.

 

[Dubstep Shep]

I looked at all the designs I could find out there and ended up going with the Whiteline version. No regrets and have been very pleased with the results.

The white line is an extremely similar design to Griggs. It's the superior design for a Watts link in my book. Minimum weight added, and almost nothing added to unsprung weight.

 

[Darkside323]

I installed a whiteline watts link last week and have been loving every minute I have driven my car. A little note though if you install whiteline piece. Don't pay attention to the torque settings in the instructions. Some of them are too high for the bolts. A little forum research will yield the proper values.

 

[barbaro]

There are no authorities. Everyone you think knows what they are talking about doesn't and often people you think don't know what they are talking about do. There is not an ultimate truth that anybody will accept. Just mention torque arm for instance and watch the bile spill. The only truth is your personal experience. I know my setup works bitchin. Are panhard bars as good . . . that is someone else's truth maybe. It is not mine.

 

[SoundGuyDave]

I know my setup works bitchin.

Sigh.... Here we go again... Define "bitchin." Did you do the Watts link by itself, or with a pile of other mods? What style of corner-carving do you do? What quantifiable data do you have to indicate the "bitchin-ness" of the Watts link over a Panhard bar?

I have no dog in this hunt, at all. I run a Panhard bar in my car (sprint and endurance racing), and have driven Watts equipped Mustangs on track aggressively. My personal opinion is "meh." Autocross is a whole different animal, with slalom sections we never see on a race track, and may well pay dividends under those circumstances. Grey Ghost and 908ssp both offered insightful comments on the subject.

OP: What is your chosen form of motorsport with the Mustang? You mentioned SCCA, is that road-racing, autocross, hill climbs? That may have an impact.

 

[2013DIBGT]

Hello, My interest in the Watts link is merely driven by wanting the car to be as confidence inspiring as possible on the street. I have some pretty decent back roads that I like to "play" on.

I am also looking to build the car up so that it could be confidently road raced if the opportunity presented itself. I am not really interested in cone style racing.

Thanks

 

[dontlifttoshift]

Just for clarification, you know, before the interwebs explode with "panhard bars bend with barometric pressure"

The panhard bar tends to bend under raised lateral loads, as evidenced by multiple failures in the Miller Cup Series FR500s which have to retain the OEM unit by the rules.

The STOCK panhard bar flexes, I don't believe any aftermarket bars would.

The Watts Link makes the roll center fixed as it does not move up and down with ride height changes due to braking, acceleration and road undulation. This creates more consistent tire loading, which yields more predictable behavior.

Only if the Watts link pivot is diff mounted is the roll center fixed with suspension travel. If a watts is chassis mounted, roll center changes at a more rapid rate than the panhard bar.

The consistent roll center height definitely improve transitional response and build confidence in the driver. A Watts Link is ideal for any sort of performance driving involving lateral loads, especially if the car needs to make rapid left right transitions. The more esses, the more a Watts link is favored.

Again, RCH is only consistent with a diff mounted Watts.

I would love for someone to A-B a panhard with a Watts on a S197 using THE SAME ROLL CENTER HEIGHT and actually time it. I am aware of a similar test on some prototype parts for hot rod stuff and 3 drivers couldn't tell the difference and neither could the stop watch.

 

[dontlifttoshift]

Hello, My interest in the Watts link is merely driven by wanting the car to be as confidence inspiring as possible on the street. I have some pretty decent back roads that I like to "play" on.

I am also looking to build the car up so that it could be confidently road raced if the opportunity presented itself. I am not really interested in cone style racing.

Thanks

No offense, but the car was faster than you the day you drove it home. You bought a lot of cool parts to go play on backroads, I don't believe you would ever feel the difference between the PHB or the Watts on a country backroad.

I do think that if you already the Cortex TA that a Watts is a natural fit with that set up. If you haven't spent any of that money yet, go to a track day, actually for Watts money you can do 4 or 5 of them.

 

[Sky Render]

A lot of it boils down to how you want your car to handle and "feel." Driving other people's cars with different mods is a great way to figure out how you want to set up your car. Do you know anyone local to you that has a Watts link installed?

 

[DILYSI Dave]

I think it's a big "it depends". Smooth track, relatively few high-jerk transitions, high spring rates where the car doesn't move much, etc, and I bet a nice spherical PHB get's you 90% of the confidence with 10% of the headache.

Transition heavy, bumpy, etc. surface in a relatively softly sprung car, and I suspect the difference is easily quantifiable in favor of a watts.

Just another example where the answer to "What's best?" is "It depends."

 

[Whiskey11]

The white line is an extremely similar design to Griggs. It's the superior design for a Watts link in my book. Minimum weight added, and almost nothing added to unsprung weight.

You do realize that diff mounted Watts linkages are almost all unsprung weight right? The WL watts weighs 29lbs, so does the Fays2, there is no way you can tell me that the WL is less unsprung weight.

As for PHB vs Watts linkage, in my eyes, for autocross and cart tracks and tracks with a lot of transitions then the watts link is the way to go, for more power courses or on a stiffly sprung car than a PHB is workable. I still think a Watts is hands down better all around though.

 

[Paul.]

99.99% of drivers cannot drive a completely stock coyote to its limits, including me and I'm sure the OP as well. Ergo, for street driving, your perception of "improvement" from a PHB to a Watts Link will likely be mostly in your head.

Paul.

 

[Roadracer350]

I installed a whiteline watts link last week and have been loving every minute I have driven my car. A little note though if you install whiteline piece. Don't pay attention to the torque settings in the instructions. Some of them are too high for the bolts. A little forum research will yield the proper values.

I am getting ready to start my build with complete Whiteline suspension. Can you post up the numbers you used or where you found them?