1"/1.5" drop: does this require camber bolts?

[mrgtx]

I did some searching on this, found conflicting info...

What do yo guys think? Without adjustable camber plates, are camber bolts required for a mild drop?

Thanks for any opinions!!

My Eibach Pro springs (yeah, I know some of you guys hate them...) are going in as soon as the garage is warm enough for me to move my fingers. I just want to make sure everything is on hand before I start.

 

[csamsh]

no.

 

[mrgtx]

no.

Thanks. Noob questions are tiresome...I fully appreciate that.

Some of the "customer feedback" on American Muscle for their camber bolts ($30 for a pair) said that guys with a similar drop (and the same springs in some cases) were seeing rapid tire wear before installing them...so it sounds like they were using them to take camber back out?? Hmm...

 

[claudermilk]

Yes, the camber bolts are usually purchased to adjust back to stock settings after lowering the car. You need to get your toe fixed, too. From what I've read around here you can simply rotate the stock strut mounts 180 deg to regain most of your camber.

For me, I did it the right way & got CC Plates, but I also wanted the easy adjust-ability capability as well.

 

[Whiskey11]

I would avoid camber bolts on this chassis unless you are using the ones from Ford (which are like $127 for 2 camber bolts and 2 caster bolts). The aftermarket ones have a lower torque value and don't clamp the front spindle/upright adequately enough to keep the spindle from sliding around under hard cornering loads.

If corner carving is your goal:
a.) Don't fear the camber
b.) Run camber plates to adjust camber and not bolts

 

[Norm Peterson]

I did some searching on this, found conflicting info...

What do yo guys think? Without adjustable camber plates, are camber bolts required for a mild drop?

As usual, "it depends". For some average driver who doesn't drive his Mustang through the corners any harder than he would a nothing-special point-A-to-point-B commuter car, camber correction back to OE preferred is advisable. For somebody who never met a corner he didn't feel challenged by, the resulting camber might be about right. For auto-X and tracking (Lime Rock, Thompson, and a new track soon to open somewhere in central MA that I forget the name of), it still won't be enough.

Basically, you want to match camber to your needs, which has to be your assessment based partly on how much roll you typically put the car over to. Roughly, an inch drop will drive camber somewhere between half and 3/4 degree further negative than whatever it is at now. Do you have a level driveway/garage floor and a digital angle finder? Might be nice to know where you're starting from.

OE preferred camber is -0.75°, with a tolerance of 0.75° either side of that. So technically, -1.5° is still "within spec" if only just barely. From what I read here, you might be able to live with that much, although any autoX or track time would almost certainly benefit from still more.

Ford's own camber bolts, camber- or caster-camber plates, and Steeda's HD strut mounts (which have some camber adjustability) are the only ready-made methods of camber correction you (or anybody, really) should consider.


Norm

 

[Mustang259]

So Norm are you saying that other caster camber plates are not useful? Or that they are not useful for a minor drop of 1 to 1.5 inches?
Btw I really enjoy the input from you and others who have experience in this area.

 

[csamsh]

So Norm are you saying that other caster camber plates are not useful? Or that they are not useful for a minor drop of 1 to 1.5 inches?
Btw I really enjoy the input from you and others who have experience in this area.

No...but his phrasing was weird. Things Norm says are useful

1. Ford's camber bolts
2. Camber plates
3. Steeda HD strut mounts (not a camber plate)

 

[B2B]

Steeda HD strut mounts will allow some camber adjustment. The one I used to have with my Koni Yellows will move roughly 1 degree in either direction.

 

[white86hatch]

So Norm are you saying that other caster camber plates are not useful? Or that they are not useful for a minor drop of 1 to 1.5 inches?
Btw I really enjoy the input from you and others who have experience in this area.

He's saying pick your camber correction method based on your needs. Lowering my car with camber bolts I could only get it back to -1.5. Crappy eibach bolts. That set of tires didn't last long with daily use. Ground control camber plates got me back to a setting of -0.8. My new Vorshlag plates haven't been on alignment machine yet but my eyeballs say it's close to the previous daily setting of -0.8. Not sure what the number is for the max negative setting I can achieve but it's up there.

 

[Ingwe]

I have the Steeda HD strut mounts and run -1 on the street. No adverse tire wear. I run them at max of -2.7 at the track which isn't enough for the way I drive.

 

[Norm Peterson]

So Norm are you saying that other caster camber plates are not useful? Or that they are not useful for a minor drop of 1 to 1.5 inches?
Btw I really enjoy the input from you and others who have experience in this area.

All camber- or caster-camber plates are useful.

The obvious thing that's missing from my list is something I won't recommend.

You may or may not need camber correction, regardless of how much or how little you lower your car. It comes down to where your car's camber setting is now (meaning, where it will end up after lowering, which can be estimated ahead of time), and the make-up of your driving (in particular, how much hard cornering).


Norm

 

[kcbrown]

The obvious thing that's missing from my list is something I won't recommend.

The Cortex SLA kit?

 

[csamsh]

Nope.....non-Ford camber bolts would be my guess

 

[kcbrown]

Nope.....non-Ford camber bolts would be my guess

Was trying to make a funny. Guess I failed.

 

[mrgtx]

First, this forum rocks.
The Mustang fan world is a very mixed place. There are a lot of "bros" and mouthbreathers around...but a lot of good people too. Each of you who contribute to this forum seem to be exactly the kind of folks who make internet forums worthwhile. Thank you guys! As I learn more about these cars, I hope to be able to return the favor for new folks who come along.

That said, the one consistency (not fault of the forums) is that the right answer is pretty much always the more expensive answer. It's quite predictable...

My Bilsteins and (apparently miserable) Eibach Pro springs are still on the slow boat from Texas (which is honestly ok because we just got more snow)...but I realized that I had a set of Eibach camber bolts on hand back when I was toying with the idea a while back...IIRC they were like $30 so I just grabbed them.

So the Eibach camber bolts are trash? How hard would it have been for Eibach to use the proper grade bolt?

As for the OEM camber bolts...ugh. I'm fairly familiar with high end hardware and I can barely control my eye-roll at the idea of a pair of automotive bolts for $130. Are they made out of some strange alloy harvested from a meteor crater in Siberia?

So...my struts are coming pre-assembled with the GT500 mounts...I'm starting to think that the Bilsteins were the only marginally right choice I made.

The moral of the story: Come here before you write any checks...and prepare to write a huge one.

 

[Mustang259]

It's the old adage You get what you pay for. Ive held off updating my suspension because I hate cheaping out on anything, so I've gone from koni's in my nubie stage, to BC coilovers, back to koni's then to bilstein, with high end top hats, now Im at the what the heck stage why not just save up for a good set of coil overs stage, it may take years to make a decision ugh , so the moral of my story is you can also have too much information to even enable you to make a choice. So guess what my suspension is still stock

 

[claudermilk]

The "best" answer is usually expensive, but not always the only one. For myself, I went ahead and wrote the big check to Vorshlag for their plates. I don't regret it; they are works of art, function extremely well, and down the road will end up saving me money (to go coilover, I simply have to spend about $75 to get the conversion pieces). I could have gone with the GT500 or Steeda HD mounts and called it a day, or stepped up a bit to GC or MM plates, too. There's a number of options here at several price points.

With their plates, I had the shop give me two alignment settings: one for street at OEM specs, and one for track with as much camber as the strut tower holes would allow. Even for the hotrod & racecar friendly shop it was a bit of an unusual request, but they handled it fine & gave me the requested spec sheet so I can easily adjust at the track.

 

[Whiskey11]

First, this forum rocks.
The Mustang fan world is a very mixed place. There are a lot of "bros" and mouthbreathers around...but a lot of good people too. Each of you who contribute to this forum seem to be exactly the kind of folks who make internet forums worthwhile. Thank you guys! As I learn more about these cars, I hope to be able to return the favor for new folks who come along.

That said, the one consistency (not fault of the forums) is that the right answer is pretty much always the more expensive answer. It's quite predictable...

My Bilsteins and (apparently miserable) Eibach Pro springs are still on the slow boat from Texas (which is honestly ok because we just got more snow)...but I realized that I had a set of Eibach camber bolts on hand back when I was toying with the idea a while back...IIRC they were like $30 so I just grabbed them.

So the Eibach camber bolts are trash? How hard would it have been for Eibach to use the proper grade bolt?

As for the OEM camber bolts...ugh. I'm fairly familiar with high end hardware and I can barely control my eye-roll at the idea of a pair of automotive bolts for $130. Are they made out of some strange alloy harvested from a meteor crater in Siberia?

So...my struts are coming pre-assembled with the GT500 mounts...I'm starting to think that the Bilsteins were the only marginally right choice I made.

The moral of the story: Come here before you write any checks...and prepare to write a huge one.

$130 actually is four bolts... 2 camber bolts and 2 caster bolts. The caster bolts are installed at the LCA's rear mounting point on the K-Member. Most people don't use them... I'm not most people and asked some of the lovely folks who don't use them for theirs and was given a set of the caster bolts to use on my car. I plan on taking full advantage of them.

The difference between the Eibach bolts and the Ford bolts is the bolt diameter. The Ford camber bolts are larger in diameter than the Eibach bolts and require grinding of the strut ears to install. The Eibach's don't. The problem with the Eibach bolts is the reduced diameter of the bolt means it can't take as much torque to keep it from a.) coming loose and b.) rotating on hard impacts. Both are a concern because the S197 uprights are notorious for failing when there is not enough clamping force on the upright's strut mounting ears. By failing I mean the upright snaps and you can tuck a wheel under the car.

Ford had such an issue with bolt torque on the strut to upright/spindle bolts that they changed them out in 2010 for a finer thread with a higher torque value. This increased the clamping load on the upright to prevent it from moving. The Ford OEM camber bolts use the older 148lb*ft torque spec which was the minimum Ford thought was acceptable and they achieve that through the thicker bolt diameter.

 

[mrgtx]

^^all this feedback is extremely welcome, guys.
Interesting info about the failure point, Whiskey...and very troubling.

So I would love some advice here: with preassembled Bilstein/Eibach springs/GT500 mounts on the way, what's the least painful/expensive way to set up my car so that it won't rapidly eat my fron tires, won't collapse the front suspension and will still handle well?

ANY input would be welcome.