2011 Mustang GT track log

[csamsh]

Which part wouldn't you put on a DD? The UCA or the axle-side spherical?


Norm

yes

 

[sheizasosay]

Come on CSamsh....you can't answer that honestly. Didn't you have them installed together?

 

[BMR Tech]

There is no doubt the UTCA033 will provide more NVH increase than some can handle.

That said, I think csamsh's combo is really NVH crazy.

A bearing on one end is quite substantial, a bearing on both is really asking for it.

The "problem" with bearing on both ends is, you don't have a good way to control the control arm position, to keep the bearing "indexed". When you have bearings that are out of travel, bottoming out, they can be obnoxious.

Personally, I am a fan of a fixed style bushing on one end, and a bearing on the other. Rubber, Delrin, Poly, etc, as it will keep the bearing from making so much racket, AND it helps control contamination.

Left side is indexed, and how the bearing will typically be with a fixed style bushing on the opposite end. The right side, is how the bearing can/will be at any given time when running a bearing on both ends of a control arm (UCA/LCA).



Lack of proper bearing indexing, is without a doubt the #1 reason for complaints about excessive NVH with bearings.

We have sold a tremendous amount of those UTCA033 pieces, and I do my best to keep tabs on the customers with them. The customers who have OEM, or Poly Diff bushings say they are pleasantly surprised at the NVH characteristics.

 

[csamsh]

Come on CSamsh....you can't answer that honestly. Didn't you have them installed together?

yes I did...so I don't know which is the loud part, hence the vague answer...and failed attempt at humor?

 

[csamsh]

Kelly I've wondered about that exact thing...the indexing. I always take a look at the bar when I'm under the car and see where it's sitting, and you're right in that it does move around.

Luckily for me, I don't care that it's loud, and I always make sure to tell people that I have the double spherical setup and that it's my fault it's loud, so as not to run your part into the ground.

Also luckily for me, I never notice any inconsistencies in the handling characteristics of the car, so for now nothing is getting changed

 

[sheizasosay]

yes I did...so I don't know which is the loud part, hence the vague answer...and failed attempt at humor?

My bad. I get the same thing. I think emoticons might be in our futures...

EDIT- To all readers. If you are looking at BMR Tech's "^Good to hear!" please proceed to the post prior to this one. Thank you. Have a good day. ---Kirk Out---

 

[BMR Tech]

^ Good to hear!

I appreciate your approach, and I can see your position 100%

I sent a PM to the OP, about how he is liking it. Maybe he can post up in here about his experience with it.

 

[csamsh]

My bad. I get the same thing. I think emoticons might be in our futures...

yeah either that or leaving our living rooms/offices and talking to humans...the horror...

 

[Norm Peterson]

The "problem" with bearing on both ends is, you don't have a good way to control the control arm position, to keep the bearing "indexed". When you have bearings that are out of travel, bottoming out, they can be obnoxious.

Personally, I am a fan of a fixed style bushing on one end, and a bearing on the other. Rubber, Delrin, Poly, etc, as it will keep the bearing from making so much racket, AND it helps control contamination.

Lack of proper bearing indexing, is without a doubt the #1 reason for complaints about excessive NVH with bearings.

Couple questions

1) What if you added some sort of spacers to keep the arm itself from rotating far enough to rattle against itself at maximum angular misalignment?

Either something soft that fills up the space(s) completely or something firmer with an intentional gap that still keeps the spherical from running to the limit of its angular travel. Filling up the space on only one side of the ball might be enough.


2) How durable are the Energy Suspension diff-side 3-piece poly bushings?

I see what's going on there, and it looks like an evolutionary step from Maximum Motorsports' 3-piece poly bushing design from the Fox/SN95 days. I suspect that due to the reduced length of the firm stuff this part is really more of a corner-carver kind of solution.


Norm

 

[BMR Tech]

Couple questions

1) What if you added some sort of spacers to keep the arm itself from rotating far enough to rattle against itself at maximum angular misalignment?

Either something soft that fills up the space(s) completely or something firmer with an intentional gap that still keeps the spherical from running to the limit of its angular travel. Filling up the space on only one side of the ball might be enough.


2) How durable are the Energy Suspension diff-side 3-piece poly bushings?

I see what's going on there, and it looks like an evolutionary step from Maximum Motorsports' 3-piece poly bushing design from the Fox/SN95 days. I suspect that due to the reduced length of the firm stuff this part is really more of a corner-carver kind of solution.


Norm

Norm, great questions. I hope Neema does not mind.

To answer:

1: I recommend this ALL the time. My recommendation is typically a little different than adding spacers, etc, though.

For a Rod-End like I pictured above, the "Seals It" rod-end boots have proven to be very successful in eliminating the clicking and odd noises from bottoming out the bearing. I recommend these pieces on a daily basis:

http://www.sealsit.com/rodendboots.asp

I only started recommending them after I thoroughly tested them in house. They are a booger to install on our parts with our SS Spacers you see pictured above, but they fit TIGHT and work well. When the rod-end bottoms out, it is cushioned quite well. The material Seals It uses is very impressive. I also like these because it can help soften the noise, if any....AND they help tremendously with contamination.

The problem with our housed spherical bearing pieces is.....I have to walk the customer through ways to avoid these occurrences....without the luxury of having a boot, or pre-made piece to simply send them a link to, for ordering.

This improper bearing indexing.....is mainly due to a loose jam nut, or DUAL bearing systems. Another reason why I like a fixed side, with a bearing on the other, in addition to the reasons in #2 below.

2: The Energy diff bushing is pretty durable. We sell it as a BMR part, which stems from years ago when we were out front, in the S197 development arena. We helped with the development of it.

To answer....I have had (2) people damage them. I have been doing what I do, for quite a while here at BMR and have supported/assisted probably 25,000+ customers.....so I have received as much feedback about these type of items, as you can possibly imagine.

I am a very big fan of a "fixed" (somewhat) style bushing on one end, and a Bearing type/joint etc...on the other. The typical arrangement of UCA components that I recommend when dealing with a customer who road courses, autoX, etc is a Poly Diff bushing and a spherical UCA chassis side bearing.

In a perfect world, I like the Poly UCA bushing, with a diff bearing. The challenge there is convincing a customer to use a poly UCA. the other challenge is, I recommend them to another company for the diff bearing....and I look like the bad guy when those diff bearings fail. I would say the diff bearings have a much higher "failure rate" than ours or Energy's Diff bushing. Failure as in, they seem to develop slop prematurely....not break. Now, I have had some customers actually break them though.

 

[csamsh]

I think that diff bearing would have to be considered a wear item

 

[BMR Tech]

^ Correct.

 

[sheizasosay]

Seems like a "seals it" bearing for the diff in conjunction with a poly UCA would be a good setup.

 

[BMR Tech]

Seems like a "seals it" bearing for the diff in conjunction with a poly UCA would be a good setup.

The problem is, you can't use those with a housed spherical bearing.

Or---maybe they do make them, but I am not aware.

But yes, I do agree, that would be a killer combo.

Now, keep in mind....when you DO run a poly/bearing combo.....the indexing, if done properly, should not be an issue.....so you would just want the seals it boot for contamination protection.

 

[neema]

Norm, great questions. I hope Neema does not mind.

To answer:

1: I recommend this ALL the time. My recommendation is typically a little different than adding spacers, etc, though.

For a Rod-End like I pictured above, the "Seals It" rod-end boots have proven to be very successful in eliminating the clicking and odd noises from bottoming out the bearing. I recommend these pieces on a daily basis:

http://www.sealsit.com/rodendboots.asp

I only started recommending them after I thoroughly tested them in house. They are a booger to install on our parts with our SS Spacers you see pictured above, but they fit TIGHT and work well. When the rod-end bottoms out, it is cushioned quite well. The material Seals It uses is very impressive. I also like these because it can help soften the noise, if any....AND they help tremendously with contamination.

This discussion is definitely welcome here Kelly. Regarding sealed spherical bearings you mentioned above: I haven't seen a boot for a "monoball" or spherical bearing before, but I have seen sealed spherical bearings. I don't know if they would be adaptable/applicable to the UCA or diff upper mounting location, but if they actually keep dirt out as well as a boot, it may be a nice option to have. Porsche guys are keen on upgrading control arms/bushings. This is an example of the sealed monoball: http://www.rennline.com/Sealed-Monoball-Set/productinfo/S18/

 

[BMR Tech]

^ Well, if our customers don't mind spending $1000 on a set of LCA.

 

[BMR Tech]

It does look like this could be made to work on the diff side......if its in the right person's hands.

Hmmmm.......

 

[Norm Peterson]

For a Rod-End like I pictured above, the "Seals It" rod-end boots have proven to be very successful in eliminating the clicking and odd noises from bottoming out the bearing. I recommend these pieces on a daily basis:

http://www.sealsit.com/rodendboots.asp

I have to chuckle a little. That looks like the style that an outfit called Suntech Design came up with some years ago. I'd recommended the Suncoasts to a 4th gen Camaro owner into track days who'd gone to rod-ended LCAs, and he said the same thing about the install job being a bit of a PITA. Seals-it had a different arrangement at the time.

Sorry about the low resolution, but about a 3rd generation copy from the original ad in a magazine is the best I could find.

Norm

 

[neema]

I'm so confused. I mounted the rears (18x12 et 56) on the fronts and it needed way more than the ~10mm's of spacers I expected. I ended up using 22mm of spacers to get the wheel to bolt up cleanly but I could have probably gotten away with 19-20mm thick spacers.

You can see the spacers in the picture above. It's much more than I'd want to use.

I'm stumped because the 15mm-20mm of clearance I measured from the 11.5" wheel should have let me mount the 12" up with only 8-13mm of spacer, whereas I had to use more than double. I'll double check my measuring. While I'm at it, I'm going to measure the wheels to make sure what I have matches the specified dimensions. Weird.

Pics of the 12s up front:

 

[ArizonaGT]

PS those slippers look comfy