2013 oil pump....billet back plate

[ford20]

Those clearances are well within normal for a mod motor. I wouldn't be afraid to run 5w20, your turbo might need a little more viscosity though. 5w30 should also run just fine with those main and rod clearances.


As an update to this thread I did a csi on the pump prior to putting it in. The gears are exactly the same as a 3v pump. The pressure relief spring was different. It allows for a higher psi prior to opening the relief valve.

More on the pump differences here: http://www.s197forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=106434&highlight=oil+pump

Those tolerances are looser then on the TSS gears. I don't know what factory tolerances are though.

 

[Vallee]

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[Wraith]

Those tolerances are looser then on the TSS gears. I don't know what factory tolerances are though.

You mean factory is more loose than tss correct? I will be comparing factory to tss to boundary and perhaps a new revision of boundary soon and will publish results. Anyone know the areas of the pump which people measure said tolerance? Video perhaps or maybe in the service manual?


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[BruceH]

Those tolerances are looser then on the TSS gears. I don't know what factory tolerances are though.

Gears? I was referring to the main and rod clearances. Did I misunderstand that they were set at .0018" and .002" by the builder? Both are within stock specs iirc.

 

[Wraith]

Gears? I was referring to the main and rod clearances. Did I misunderstand that they were set at .0018" and .002" by the builder? Both are within stock specs iirc.

You did not those are the bearing tolerances


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[Wraith]

Update - installed tss gears and new gt500 pump issue has been resolved. I will make details available after I take with previous oil pump gear vendor who has super cool through all this while I have been troubleshooting.


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[429244]

To sum this up, the best way to go for a 4.6 3v with stock main and rod bearing clearances is TSS gears (now $390!?!), 2013 GT500 oil pump backing plate, 4.6 3v pump housing, and 4.6 3v oil pressure relief spring. Correct?

 

[hamish]

oil pump housings are the same between the 2.
I believe the billet rear plate was to combat the issues and you may not need the TSS gears.
But the TSS gears are a proven performer and have been for quite some time.

 

[Wraith]

Just put in new pump and tss gears works as described


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[Wraith]

Update # 2: I will be going to 10W40 synthetic driven after break in for warm weather. My break in oil 30w is being broken down by heat so I want to added cushion of oil film for my bearing surfaces. I have 13 GT500 pump and TSS gears. The TSS gears are tighter tolerance by .001 roughly inner to out gear as compared to stock gears.

 

[BruceH]

Update # 2: I will be going to 10W40 synthetic driven after break in for warm weather. My break in oil 30w is being broken down by heat so I want to added cushion of oil film for my bearing surfaces. I have 13 GT500 pump and TSS gears. The TSS gears are tighter tolerance by .001 roughly inner to out gear as compared to stock gears.

FYI Film isn't what keeps bearings from eating themselves. It's positive separation provided by the oil wedge that's formed with the correct viscosity oil flowing at the correct psi. The correct viscosity oil is determined by how much the pump flows at what psi, bearing clearances, and oil passages. Provided the oil meets api requirements you will have plenty of film strength. The only time film strength matters more than an oil wedge is when cranking the motor over.

If rod and main bearings relied on the oil film as the main source of lubrication they wouldn't last more than a few minutes if that.

I'm just repeating myself at this point. Good luck with your motor.

 

[Wraith]

Thanks my builder was the one that suggested going 10w40 vs 30 given the results we had on straight 30. I have about 45 to 50 at wot which with locked cams and my tolerances is plenty which is what matters [emoji16]


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[10secgt]

Update - installed tss gears and new gt500 pump issue has been resolved. I will make details available after I take with previous oil pump gear vendor who has super cool through all this while I have been troubleshooting.


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Has anyone had experience with Boundary gears? I have the 13 GT500 pump already and was ready to order the Boundary gears for my 08 GT DOB forged bottom end build in progress... until I read Wraith had oil pressure issues with the Boundary gears. Wraith did you ever get details on what was causing the issue with the Boundary gears?

 

[Wraith]

Has anyone had experience with Boundary gears? I have the 13 GT500 pump already and was ready to order the Boundary gears for my 08 GT DOB forged bottom end build in progress... until I read Wraith had oil pressure issues with the Boundary gears. Wraith did you ever get details on what was causing the issue with the Boundary gears?

My overall issues with pressure were due to the lose tolerance of my motor. I swapped in TSS gears and picked up pressure but nothing like what OEM says. My motor has about 6000 miles on it over 5000 at 16psi @ 600hp and my warm 10/30 synthetic OP @ never gets over 45 to 50psi at any rpm and as low as 15 at idle.

I honestly just decided after talking with my builder and a few others that if it broke cause of what "might" be an issue I would deal with and started beating the crap out of it.

My findings were the gears I had compared to the tss and oem had loser tolerances. Was literally about .002 in difference. I'm pretty sure had I not swapped I would be in same place I am now enjoying the car trying to forget that it could be an issue lol.

They refunded me and I went tss. Me and the owner of boundary talked I shared data and he inspected and verified my measurements as well. Very nice guy to deal with. If I had to do it over again I'd probably had tighter tolerances to start with and been a none issue.

Hope it helps


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[eighty6gt]

Well, at least this thread has frightened me into installing the oil pump spring from my factory pump into my 2013 GT500 pump.

 

[deathwishracer]

I'm not bashing Travis(boundary) by any means, he is super nice to deal with, and refunded my money on the gears. But I had the exact same issue on my motor. This was a built shortblock I bought used from a buddy. Ran fine with great oil pressure with a set of TSS gears in his car. We pulled it and I installed a new GT500 pump with new Boundary gears. As soon as the engine started getting hot, pressure started dropping, and eventually got low enough that the phasers started knocking. Pulled the motor, took out the pump, the gears were chewed up on the tips of the internal gear, and the entire inside of the external gear. Boundary refunded my money, I did TSS gears, and everything is perfect. Same pump, same engine, better gears. It's no little feat pulling and installing an engine with a turbo setup, and I sure didn't like doing it twice for a product I thought was an upgrade. Spend the money, get TSS. Also, I talked with another guy at the track with a similar setup to mine, had the exact same issue, and result. Seems to be a recurring problem

 

[Wraith]

I have heard of 2 others beyond this list here. I wish I could find a couple videos we took about how the gears differed in design between where the peak of the inner gear met the valley of the outer gear. The TSS and OEM have a slight flat spot where the boundary gears had more of a rounded peak and valley. My engine builder questioned how the gears would flow at low rpm well. If someone has them side by side take a picture you will see the profile difference I speak of. The boundary gears contacted on this peak and valley where the oem and TSS actually never touch in the area but over the whole curve of the gears.


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[deathwishracer]

pics of gears

These pics are the Boundary gears after 1 heat cycle of idle time. In a brand new GT500 pump, in a perfect setup.

 

[Wraith]

Over time that won't live....the others never touch that way so they maintain tolerance. Thanks for pics


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[Wes06]

Wow that's scary

Glad I paid the extra $ for tss when I bought gears.

Also got the billet pump housing, swapped the spring with my stock gt setup and bolt that holds it in