Addressing the "Coyote Swap It!!" Declarations

[RED09GT]

Maybe he did say phasers, or maybe he misspoke. I have asked for a clarification by email.

Also worth noting, he emphasized that the bigger oil pump in the B326 (along with a recommendation to use 10-40 oil) increased oil pressure and was a big part of the solution.

As for the example you gave with "Tiger," is there a thread somewhere I can read through? Wondering whether the Livernois limiters created different results than the comp cam design. Also wondering WHEN that problem was.

Worst case, I'll elect for the lockouts and be done with it. But, I want to be sure that's not fixing a problem that was solved 5 years ago.

The comp limiters are a better design, not as simple, but effective. If you pair them with a spring like the comp 26113's and keep to less than 14 lbs of boost, it should have acceptable control.
As for the oil pump, the biggest issue was the pressure would fall off. The 2013 GT500 oil pump uses a billet steel backing plate as the stock backing plate (the GT500 and all 3V applications) would flex at higher RPM's and would allow leakage around it and provide less oil pressure to the phasers. it is a worthwhile upgrade. I went with the GT500 piece and added boundary pump gears-they had a few issues and rumours at first but now make a solid product.

As for the tiger thread, good luck finding it as he posted about a billion things.

 

[HOLLYWD69]

Yea, I did a ton of research. The guys who so condescendingly say you should just "coyote swap" havn't done a true apples to apples comparison. The Coyote might be the way to go if your considerations are different then mine, e.g. you're okay with used or your HP goals are different.

As for the Whipple, I had wondered about the larger DOB offerings. Not sure how the larger Whipple would compare in performance/price. With the TVS Gen3, I think 700-750 at the wheels is very realistic. As you approach 800RWHP, you also have to convert to a return style fuel system; so, at some point, good will be good enough for me.

The Whipple is much more expensive but once you get over 800whp it starts to shine.
I've had to scale my expectations back right now and plan on just rebuilding my stock block and going with a smaller SC.

 

[1950StangJump$]

The comp limiters are a better design, not as simple, but effective. If you pair them with a spring like the comp 26113's and keep to less than 14 lbs of boost, it should have acceptable control.
As for the oil pump, the biggest issue was the pressure would fall off. The 2013 GT500 oil pump uses a billet steel backing plate as the stock backing plate (the GT500 and all 3V applications) would flex at higher RPM's and would allow leakage around it and provide less oil pressure to the phasers. it is a worthwhile upgrade. I went with the GT500 piece and added boundary pump gears-they had a few issues and rumours at first but now make a solid product.

As for the tiger thread, good luck finding it as he posted about a billion things.

Here is what I found. From what I can tell, he built the car in 2011, and he always had an oil pressure problem. In 2017, the cam phaser and Livernois limiters failed. At the same time, they found something plugging up the oil pump.

At one point, he speculated that running for years with oil pressure problems probably killed the phaser, which killed the limiters.

Then, inexplicitly, he turned on Brenspeed, but I can't decide why. Maybe he blamed them for the crap plugging up the oil pump? Regardless, unless I'm missing something, there is no indication that limiters (which are a different design than I'll get anyway) were unable to keep up because of the valves springs used.

https://www.s197forum.com/threads/2...g-build-pics-video-on-post-518.107300/page-63

 

[RED09GT]

First off, the information that I have went off of for limiter failures with certain valvesprings and the limits of the VCT system. Search out Lito's and BruceH's posts about this. They are going on actual data. They are not parts houses and don't gain anything from parts sales so I trust their data far more than certain vendors.

EricBrooks (now with HP tuners) was another person I discussed valvetrain with when I was planning my build. Bottom line is that there are limitations and those that ignore them find out the hard way.

 

[1950StangJump$]

Like I said, I'll lock out if necessary, so I'm not "bought in" either way.

For the record, Brenspeed charged me no additional fee whether I wanted the 127350 (with no limiters) or the 127450 with limiter or lockout. So, it's not a money issue for them.

Regardless, I have some more research to do on the matter. Engine has a 6-8 week build time because of the ported heads, so I have time

 

[Midlife Crises]

A customer had a set at the machine shop that I used and they had all the same stampings and machine markings as my 2009 ones so not sure how your 2010 could be different from them. We even had to guess at which lash adjuster was the new one and which one came out of my engine. Watch the video on American Muscle, they even state that you are not getting anything different from OEM.

Your machine shop customer was feeding you a line of bull shit. Anybody can hold the production follower and the updated one side by side and see the difference.

 

[Badd GT]

Your machine shop customer was feeding you a line of bull shit. Anybody can hold the production follower and the updated one side by side and see the difference.

Just out of curiosity, how would any design change in a follower affect your VCT?

 

[RED09GT]

Your machine shop customer was feeding you a line of bull shit. Anybody can hold the production follower and the updated one side by side and see the difference.

Just saying, we took them out of the ford racing box, sealed by summit racing.

And I build my own stuff, the machine shop wanted to see if they were the same, they were.

 

[Midlife Crises]

The smaller and differently shaped oil hole in the updated follower is unmistakeable when compared to the round oil hole in the production followers. That is my point. Whether the change affects oil pressure or volume I do not know. I read a long time ago the biggest problem with the 3V oil system was the leaking oil pump backplate. The FRPP 3V pump with steel backplate solves that. I am running a Comp cam and springs and haven’t had a bit of trouble with the valve train so far. It sees 15 lbs of boost and seems to like it.

 

[Badd GT]

Your running a set up that works with full VCT. Apples to oranges

 

[1950StangJump$]

Okay, so if I understand it . . . the question is whether the stiffer valve springs on the B326 would cause the VVT, whether full/stock or limited, to function incorrectly and/or fail (or the limiters to fail, if equipped).

Since the thread went this direction earlier today, I have been reading a bunch. It would appear to be a very grey area . . . dependent on the springs, cam, car use, style of limiter, oil pump/pressure and . . . risk tolerance.

Seems a legit question to consider, as I am somewhat risk averse. But, the question in my mind is whether this is a problem of yesteryear and whether Brenspeed has found a reliable combination with limiters. On the other hand, even if only a little risk to limiters, will the Gen3 blower I'm installing more than compensate for any lost torque from just using lockouts and make that the better choice.

I'm going to be making yet another call to the Brenspeed owner tomorrow and have him talk me through his experiences. Again, he is not charging me anything different for whatever combo I go with, so he I'm not worried about his response being swayed by the possibility of an up-charge.

Will report back.

 

[Midlife Crises]

Your running a set up that works with full VCT. Apples to oranges

Matched components!

 

[Midlife Crises]

1950Stanglump$ If I we’re building my engine today I would not chose the 127350 cam set. It is more conservative than I really wanted. The 127450 or even the 550 would have been a better choice for my use. The larger cams will work better in your larger displacement engine also.

 

[1950StangJump$]

1950Stanglump$ If I we’re building my engine today I would not chose the 127350 cam set. It is more conservative than I really wanted. The 127450 or even the 550 would have been a better choice for my use. The larger cams will work better in your larger displacement engine also.

Yep, 127450 is what I got. Just need to figure out whether limiters or lockouts ...

 

[1950StangJump$]

So, more talking with folks and still not sure which way to go on the limiters vs. lockouts question.

DOB says they have seen the Comp Cam limiters fail multiple times, and he is in favor of locking the cams to eliminate a failure point. He further states that the 20ish HP (or torque) I lose down low with locks won't be noticeable with the Gen3 TVS, which I believe.

Talked with the owner of Brenspeed. He said that he sells the B326s frequently, and he has never seen one with a limiter failure. As for the high lift valve springs causing issues for the VVT, he said that concern is real, but they have overcome it with the better oil pump and by using 10w40 non-synthetic oil. He reiterated that the guides/followers were, indeed, updated, which also allows for better oil flow.

In the end, he did agree that I probably wouldn't notice the loss of HP if I decided to lock them. Interestingly, he said the locks cause HP loss on the top end, which is the opposite of what I would have thought.

Based on my build timeline, I have a couple weeks to decide what I want. I will try to reach out to Lito and see what he thinks.

 

[Dino Dino Bambino]

In the end, he did agree that I probably wouldn't notice the loss of HP if I decided to lock them. Interestingly, he said the locks cause HP loss on the top end, which is the opposite of what I would have thought.

It depends on whether the phasers are locked in full WOT advance (lower ICA) or full WOT retard (higher ICA).

 

[RED09GT]

You can split the difference between low end or top end losses by either getting the TFS 2V crank sprockets or having a cam custom ground. The cost to have Comp custom grind a cam vs an off the shelf cam varies from same price to a couple cases of beer of difference.

With the TFS sprockets, you take a cam like the 127450's and instead of installing it at the specified 102 degree ICL, use the slot for 6 degrees of retard and install it at 108 degree ICL. This might drop the peak HP RPM by a 300-400 vs. using limiters and 10 degrees of retard in the tune. With a power adder, you can make up for any power shortfalls by adding more boost.
The downfall is that it is not easy to change the cam timing with the engine in the car, you have to pull the front cover and take the chains off to do so.

 

[Badd GT]

It would be easier to just use the livernois springs. Their specs fall right between the comp 113’s and 125’s. More than enough to handle the 127450’s and 18 lbs of boost yet retain good VCT control

 

[GlassTop09]

For those that aren't aware of what Midlife Crises is referring to concerning the cam followers here is a picture of the new Ford redesign beside the original....the new design is the bottom one in this picture:

Also

 

[Badd GT]

For those that aren't aware of what Midlife Crises is referring to concerning the cam followers here is a picture of the new Ford redesign beside the original....the new design is the bottom one in this picture:
View attachment 72050
Also

Your phasers control your vct, not your followers

For those that aren't aware of what Midlife Crises is referring to concerning the cam followers here is a picture of the new Ford redesign beside the original....the new design is the bottom one in this picture:
View attachment 72050
Also