autocross and observances

foolio2k4

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I think what he is refering to as "twitchy" is the ability to transfer weight with the throttle, by either pushing or releasing. The S197 has a lot more torque than either of the other cars, and thus the throttle plays a bigger part in steering the car and possibly unsettling it.

Most aftermarket tuners think having a throttle like a hair trigger is a good thing. Well, in the case of corner carver, it makes it more tricky. I've spun on slight lift on more than one occasion.

Take that fast right-hander, right before the pivot type turn. Lets say you turn in there and suddenly feel like you're going a too fast, just backing off the gas slightly can transfer weight from the rear to the front, unsettling the car and causing oversteer.

actually, on that fast right hander, I throttle and turn the car, i get to a point where the car feels like it wants to rotate and do a slight oppo and let off. I havent had any problems with lift off oversteer.

My description of the cars behavior was probably misleading. Most of the twitch is from putting the power on out of a corner and the rear "twitches a little bit" not so much from the tires breaking loose but the presumable the axle movement.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VlQQ12KlsY4

this is from the other drivers POV. there a clip of my car starting from 6:40. Let me know what you think. This was taken in the first few laps and i was just getting to learn the track.
 

SoundGuyDave

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Couple of things... First, if you're not getting trailing-throttle-oversteer, you're not driving the car hard enough through the corner! Ideally, what you want to do is hit corner entry, hard, and still under braking to set up a little trail-brake rotation. Dynamically, this is happening because you've transferred the weight forward (braking) and to the outside (turn-in), pulling the weight off the rear. The rear tires, with reduced load from the transfer, simply can't grip and begin to slide, so the car starts to rotate. Once you have the rotation started, you control the yaw by getting off the brake and into the gas, which pulls the weight rearward, increasing the traction to the rear. Note however, that this implies that you have gotten the front to bite and turn in! Once you're back on the gas, you can control the rotation (yaw) with the throttle. More gas means more rear bite and less rotation, less gas means less rear bite and more rotation.

The whole point of this rotation business is to get slip angle on the tires. Tires provide maximum traction in a certain range of slip... A slight wheel-spin will provide more traction on launch than dead-hooking, in the same way that a slight amount of lock-up will provide more traction under braking than NO slipping. If it's visible, you've gone a touch too far, but a slight amount is still critical for maximizing what the tire can do. For street tires, a slip angle somewhere between 8* and 16* will probably give you the most traction the tire can produce, but you need to get it in that range, and that means cornering load. To get that load for a given corner, you have a fairly narrow range of speed that you have to be in, plus the chassis setup to balance the car out front and rear in those load conditions.

Not bagging on you, just hoping to push you a little harder through the corners. If you're going through a corner where the throttle doesn't do anything to orient the car, you're simply not going fast enough! In practice, you want to feel the car start to spin at or just after turn-in, catch it with the throttle, and then push the car (with progressively more and more throttle) through the corner with the tail hanging out slightly until track-out where you unwind the wheel and the rear end drops back in line with the front. I only use opposite lock when I've overdone the throttle thing and the car is rotating more DESPITE the gas! When you dial in opposite lock, you take the chassis out of "set," then roll it back in again when you unwind the lock, none of which allows maximum weight transfer to the outside tires. That means less grip, and that means less speed. That's that whole "smooth is fast" thing.

Applied theory:

1: turn-in and start the rotation.

IMG_4330_Hitzeman_NASAGL-MW_Autobahn_TTB281_Lowum_Sep2010.jpg


2: catch the rotation with the throttle, incidentally causing the car to start accelerating!

IMG_4334_Hitzeman_NASAGL-MW_Autobahn_TTB281_Lowum_Sep2010.jpg


3: keep rolling into the throttle as hard as you can, holding the car's attitude. If possible, go to WOT at or slightly before apex. Note my hand position... With the induced rotation plus the acceleration, the car is effectively sliding through the corner, so I can unwind the wheel a lot sooner. Since there is no more steering drag (differing slip angles front and rear), I'm accelerating harder, sooner, and that translates to more exit speed, which is what it's all about.

IMG_4336_Hitzeman_NASAGL-MW_Autobahn_TTB281_Lowum_Sep2010.jpg


4: start to unwind the wheel, and feed it more gas (if any's available). Note how tight the car is to the inside edge of the track, and that while the wheels are straight (check hand position), the car is still sliding away from the center of the corner, so it's still heading for the proper track-out point. In the case of this particular corner, the track-out point is actually mid-track to set up for a gentle left-hander that follows. As you can see from the roll angle, the car is still set on the suspension, despite having the wheel unwound.

IMG_4338_Hitzeman_NASAGL-MW_Autobahn_TTB281_Lowum_Sep2010.jpg


5: Unwind completely, foot to the floor, on the way to track-out. The suspension is now back to un-set, I haven't touched the wheel, and the car is still drifting away from apex and heading towards track-out. I was pulling a pretty consistent 1.2-1.3G in this corner, with turn-in around 75mph, and my Traqmate showed a max-Q of around 1.5G.

IMG_4339_Hitzeman_NASAGL-MW_Autobahn_TTB281_Lowum_Sep2010.jpg



Maybe Sam can chime in for autocross-specific comments, but that's my take based on vehicle dynamics. It doesn't matter whether you're cornering at 30mph or 130mph, it's still all about managing weight, and making it work for you.
 

Sleeper_08

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Dave

Thanks again for taking the time and making the effort to show how it should be done. The pics are great.

Not much weight left on the inside front wheel in pic 2 is there!

Hard to tell from the pics but does that corner have any camber?
 

SoundGuyDave

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Hey, Sleep! I'm snowed in here in Chicago, so I was a bit bored...

No, there's not a lot of weight on the inside front, from pic 2 through 4. It's all about weight transfer, though, and putting the contact patch down wherever possible. The daylight you see under most of the tire is an artifact of the horrible camber-gain that you get with a strut-based front end. An SLA car won't do that, but I can still make the argument that you CAN drive like a hoon in a strut car and make the thing stick.

There is a slight (~0.5*) camber to that corner, which helps, but the whole theory and practice still applies to a flat or even off-camber corner. With a given tire compound, chassis setup, and wheel rate to control weight transfer, there is a finite amount of grip available in any given corner. The key to the game is to find that grip limit, and flirt with it as often, and as long as possible. If you run too conservatively, you give up speed (which translates to time), and if you run too aggressively, you give up speed (which translates to time). There's a narrow window that you have to find and run in to really maximize your final results... It took me more than a couple of years of running hard to START to feel the car and it's limits, and now my quest is for consistency.

I will say, however, that once you know what it's supposed to feel like, the rest of it just falls into place. Of particular importance is that this skill is portable. I had a novice student up at Road America last year that was just afraid of finding the limits of the car, afraid that if pushed too hard, the Ford Focus would actually flip. I plopped my student in the passenger seat, and then went out, in a car I have NEVER driven on-track before, and a FWD car to boot, and proceeded to do exactly the same thing I've been doing. Rotate, catch it with the gas, then boot it in the ass. he student saw the light, and started picking up the pace. By the end of the weekend, not only were the Miatas getting passed, but so was a Mustang and a BMW 328!

The point is, once you connect your butt to the car, and start paying attention to what it's telling you, you'll make a quantum leap as a driver, and that the skill applies to everything you drive. Hell, I'm noticing weight transfer in my street car, in the snow these days...
 

Sleeper_08

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Dave

Yea you sent the bad weather on to us. I'm working from home today and so I didn't have to worry about it. :)

Your comments about feeling what the car is doing reminded me about a long, long time ago when I drove a race prepped Alfa Romeo Guiletta Spider 1600 to the race track. It had a proper racing seat and 5 point harness. Driving it was like being part of the car. PS - the reason I was driving is that the fellow who owned it was busy so the "crew" got to drive it to the track.

I really would like to upgrade my Mustang to a proper seat/harness/roll bar but as it is a daily driver and has side airbags am still undecided. In addition the cross bar on the roll bar would have to be detachable to allow me to put tires and tools into the rear seat area. For street use I really like having the side airbags.

Maybe next year I'll compromise and get a proper seat/harness/roll bar combo for use during the track season and then swap back to stock for the seat of the year.

PPS - Porsches have strut suspensions on the front and they don't handle too badly do they!
 

SoundGuyDave

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simple solution for your storage issues:

IMAG0007-1.jpg


A treatise on P-car handling:



Honestly, if yours is a daily driver, I would just stick with the stock safety gear. It would plain SUCK to get hit if you have a track safety package in the car, but be caught without a HANS and helmet... On the other hand, it takes all of about five minutes to swap out the seat and harnesses, which makes it easily doable just before heading to the track. Swap back to the street stuff when you're home, and all would be good!
 

Sleeper_08

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My problem is that I live in an apartment and so have nowhere to safely store the trailer.

All of my track stuff, including 3 wheels/tires, is kept in my apartment between track events and then taken down 24 floors in the elevator and loaded into the car. The process is now tuned to the point that it only takes 3 trips. :)
 

SoundGuyDave

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While my townhome isn't quite as bad, I can't store the trailer on-site either... I rent a 10x10 storage locker for around $100 per month, and that holds my trailer, an assortment of spare parts (fascias, hood, bits and pieces that "fell" off the car in the name of weight reduction), a LARGE tool box, air compressor, and a bunch of other stuff. During the winter months, the tires are in my basement, which is starting to look like a Hoosier warehouse, but in the summer, they live strapped to the trailer, and ready to go. Just food for thought.
 

peetiewonder

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I wonder if el toro will ever hold any gymkhana events:evillaugh:

doubt it, the reason they dont hold drift events over there anymore is cuz people complained about the smoke while they were on FREE air baloon rides.
 

Cone Sweeper

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Dave - I love reading your write-ups every time. There always full with so much information that doesn't only help the OP but anyone who reads them. Thanks again for taking the time out to write them!!!!
p.s. Take a trip down to Fla sometime!! lol
 

TLeroux

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Couple of things... First, if you're not getting trailing-throttle-oversteer, you're not driving the car hard enough through the corner! Ideally, what you want to do is hit corner entry, hard, and still under braking to set up a little trail-brake rotation.


Dave, can you teach me how you do this trail-brak rotation and what mods I need on my car to do it?
:evil:
 

foolio2k4

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@soundguydave Thanks for the awesome writeup with pictures. Im sure not only me but everyone else will benefit from it.

Yes I understand the concepts of trail braking and have done it before. Wish I had enough time and money to go to the track and master it.
 

SoundGuyDave

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Dave, can you teach me how you do this trail-brak rotation and what mods I need on my car to do it?
:evil:

Terry, yer killin' me!

This coming from the man known in the NASA Great Lakes region as "The Trail Braking King!"

Sticking in TTC next year, or coming up to play in TTB? Either way, the first round of adult beverages is on me!
 

ArizonaGT

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What is all this talk about braking? BRAKES ONLY SLOW YOU DOWN, GUYS!!! GET WITH IT!!!
 

TLeroux

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Terry, yer killin' me!

This coming from the man known in the NASA Great Lakes region as "The Trail Braking King!"

Sticking in TTC next year, or coming up to play in TTB? Either way, the first round of adult beverages is on me!

Dave,
I've got 18 points left in TTC, so I probably won't be coming up to TTB.

What's this I hear aobut you and Joe and CMC2? I actually went the cheap route this winter and will be out with a SM for some events next year.

Terry Leroux
2010 NASA Great Lakes just ahead of TTC First Loser...
 

TLeroux

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What is all this talk about braking? BRAKES ONLY SLOW YOU DOWN, GUYS!!! GET WITH IT!!!

Well I wouldn't touch the brakes if that big round thing you hold on to keep in your seat would ever consider helping to change the car's direction.
 

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