Best 3V Supercharger on stock internals?

[Department Of Boost]

I say DOB.................................Imagine that!

When it comes to $$/HP-TQ it simply can't be beat. Add in it's unparalleled flexibility and bulletproof reliability I can't imagine why someone would go with a different PD blower when shooting for 450rwhp on a stock block.

 

[Department Of Boost]

A better intercooler is a good idea. IATs vary on positive displacement superchargers. My 2.3 liter Whipple stayed at 10-20 over ambient temps during normal driving. Of course they would go up at a stop light but would come right back down once air was moving into the engine. The hottest I ever saw it at the end of a quarter mile was 117, that was on an 80 degree afternoon with about 11psi. Of course the temps went up as soon as the throttle was let up due to lack of airflow through the blower.

Did you use the relocated IAT sensor on your kit (in the manifold)? I'm guessing you did but these numbers are low IMO. I always thought that what you were seeing was low, but I never had first hand experience to draw from. All of the Whipple 2.3's I have worked on, driven, etc were turned up to 11 so couldn't be compared to one at 450rwhp.

But yesterday, no kidding, yesterday I got a customer car in that is getting a R-Spec, motor, trans, big fuel system, huge cooling...................pretty much everything. Anyway the car has the 2.3L Whipple on it now at 450rwhp on the stock motor. I drove it around a bit yesterday and the IAT's were what I see out of all the 3v kits (aside from the R-Spec). 30-50deg over ambient depending on conditions. It's just coincidence that I saw this thread today. I wasn't thinking about what you saw in the past when I was driving yesterday.

I wonder if some combination of "error" was causing you to see a flyer. There isn't a "hard part" explanation as to why the Whipple would run considerably cooler. Normal size IC, normal water flow, aluminum manifold (no heat barrier), normal head unit (under normal driving one head unit won't put out noticeably more/less heat than another).

 

[BruceH]

Did you use the relocated IAT sensor on your kit (in the manifold)? I'm guessing you did but these numbers are low IMO. I always thought that what you were seeing was low, but I never had first hand experience to draw from. All of the Whipple 2.3's I have worked on, driven, etc were turned up to 11 so couldn't be compared to one at 450rwhp.

But yesterday, no kidding, yesterday I got a customer car in that is getting a R-Spec, motor, trans, big fuel system, huge cooling...................pretty much everything. Anyway the car has the 2.3L Whipple on it now at 450rwhp on the stock motor. I drove it around a bit yesterday and the IAT's were what I see out of all the 3v kits (aside from the R-Spec). 30-50deg over ambient depending on conditions. It's just coincidence that I saw this thread today. I wasn't thinking about what you saw in the past when I was driving yesterday.

I wonder if some combination of "error" was causing you to see a flyer. There isn't a "hard part" explanation as to why the Whipple would run considerably cooler. Normal size IC, normal water flow, aluminum manifold (no heat barrier), normal head unit (under normal driving one head unit won't put out noticeably more/less heat than another).

The temp sensor was relocated to a back runner. I wanted it in an area where moving air would be measured just prior to entering the combustion chamber vs the back of the manifold where dead air can accumulate. It showed ambient when first started. It would shoot up during a stop but always came back down after driving some.

The same sensor was used when I ran the blower non-intercooled and temps were definitely higher. It's been awhile but iirc non-intercooled driving temps would be around 60 over ambient. Once again they would shoot up at a stop but go right back down once air started to move through the motor.

I can tell you that I monitored the iats all the time with every blower I had. I've also spoken with other 2.3 FRPP HO Whipple owners who reported the same iats as I saw when driving. FWIW I was using a lightning sensor that was spliced into the maf wiring.

Have you had a chance to drive a FRPP 2.3 Whipple HO kit on a stock block and monitor iats? That would be an apples to apples comparison. Maybe the 160 degree t stat they include helps some? The heat exchanger is very large and the intercooler is good sized too.

 

[BruceH]

Jason, do you know what generation Whipple was on the motor? More than likely it was a current gen 2 but if it was a gen 1 with Lysholm rotors it would run hotter.

Edit: And now that I think about it I think the DOB kit had the iat sensor mounted in the rear of the intake manifold, not in a runner just before the head like the Whipple or in an area where moving air close to the combustion chamber would be measured. Not exactly apples to apples.

This pic was taken during a snout seal replacement. If you look in the left rear the iat sensor can be seen.



Just looked up the DOB sensor location. It's not in the back, it's in an area of airflow just like the Whipple was.



Maybe the 5" intercooler has something to do with it?

 

[808muscle]

Not suggesting it but my m90 cammed setup has 500+ passes down the quater mile track. These motors are work mules with a blower. Get Lito to tune it too.

 

[Wes06]

+1
Regardless of blower go with Lito

 

[Department Of Boost]

The temp sensor was relocated to a back runner. I wanted it in an area where moving air would be measured just prior to entering the combustion chamber vs the back of the manifold where dead air can accumulate. It showed ambient when first started. It would shoot up during a stop but always came back down after driving some.

The same sensor was used when I ran the blower non-intercooled and temps were definitely higher. It's been awhile but iirc non-intercooled driving temps would be around 60 over ambient. Once again they would shoot up at a stop but go right back down once air started to move through the motor.

I can tell you that I monitored the iats all the time with every blower I had. I've also spoken with other 2.3 FRPP HO Whipple owners who reported the same iats as I saw when driving. FWIW I was using a lightning sensor that was spliced into the maf wiring.

Have you had a chance to drive a FRPP 2.3 Whipple HO kit on a stock block and monitor iats? That would be an apples to apples comparison. Maybe the 160 degree t stat they include helps some? The heat exchanger is very large and the intercooler is good sized too.

I know you're very, very into data. Not questioning your memory/interpretation/etc. Just trying to get my head around "why".

I'm going to put a few miles on the car that is in house to see what I get in all driving conditions. It's a 2009 stock motor 450hp Whipple HO setup. All stock right out of the box. It should give a pretty good data point.

Jason, do you know what generation Whipple was on the motor? More than likely it was a current gen 2 but if it was a gen 1 with Lysholm rotors it would run hotter.

It's a Gen2

Just looked up the DOB sensor location. It's not in the back, it's in an area of airflow just like the Whipple was.

I agree, I don't think there would be anything between the two IAT locations as far as data goes. At least not anything that could be measured.

Maybe the 5" intercooler has something to do with it?

Maybe. That would be hard to test for too. The GT450 has a 4.5" IC core. But it's also 4.5" wide and 10" long. It's actually a little bigger in core volume than the Whipple unit. I agree that the extra depth gives you more "soak time" and is nice. But surface area is surface area.

One thing that just occurred to me is the GT450 manifold has more mass than the cast Whipple unit. Does that mean it's possible to hold/transfer more heat from the heads???? I would need to think about that for a while.

I'll see what I get out of this car I have before I take it apart.

 

[BruceH]

One more thought occurred, where is the Whipple iat sensor on the car you have in shop? A lot of people would put the sensor in the back of the lower manifold behind the intercooler instead of in a runner. That would explain a difference in temps too.

Just to be clear, no knocks on the DOB unit. It's a best bang for the buck and even if it was more money it would still be a great pd blower kit. I really enjoyed mine when I had it. It's very well made and looks like it belongs in the engine bay.

 

[ChewyR]

I didn't mean to infer that the DOB kit ran inherently hotter than any other roots/screw supercharger. For a stock bottom end its the best way to go. Even with a built bottom end its hard to beat as far as $/HP.

 

[hockeygod]

I am using a Paxton setup myself which was reasonably priced. It produces all of the power I want and has room to grow. Ease of maintanence wise I would say the dob would be easier. The strange bracket Paxton uses to hold the supercharger in place makes belt changes an hour long order since you have to remove the whole supercharger to do it.
Take it from me "plan out your possible end goals otherwise you will spend more money in the long run than you may want."

 

[05gtowner]

Another thing to consider is if you live in a state that is strict with emission controls. Some of the setups mentioned are 50 state emissions legal and some are not.

 

[Department Of Boost]

I am using a Paxton setup myself which was reasonably priced. It produces all of the power I want and has room to grow. Ease of maintanence wise I would say the dob would be easier. The strange bracket Paxton uses to hold the supercharger in place makes belt changes an hour long order since you have to remove the whole supercharger to do it.
Take it from me "plan out your possible end goals otherwise you will spend more money in the long run than you may want."

An hour!!!! That would drive me nuts!!!

 

[Saleen4971]

Vortech requires moving the whole blower and bracket back as well, but an hour may be a bit of an exaggeration

 

[jam07GT]

I'm trying to plan a build on my 09 GT/CS. Option one is to go with a supercharger and leave the internals stock. This car will likely never see more than 4 or 5 passes down the quarter mile. Most of the time it is a weekend/cruise-in warrior with the occasional run through the gears on a straight back road in the middle of nowhere. My car is a manual 5-speed.

I know the rods and then pistons are the week link on the stock internals. So I am considering three ways to approach this.

1) Vortech V3 Si-Trim - I'm actually not a fan of centri super chargers because the plumbing is cluttered looking and they are the noisiest SC at idle. I don't mind superchargers that whistle/whine under WOT, but I can't stand a loud whistle (or worse the can of rattling marbles sound) at idle. I prefer it not to be evident that the car is blown at idle. The upside on the Vortech is price and I have read the centri superchargers are not as hard as a roots type on stock internals (not sure if that's true). I think I could get this done for less than $5K.

2) Roush - Not sure which way to go here M90 is a bit of a lightweight, but is cheap and supposedly safe. The next step up (2300 TVS?) is upgradeable but starts at something like 475 hp. I like the numbers quoted with this, the Roush is a relatively clean look under the hood and seems to be relatively quiet at idle. Probably more expensive than the Vortech ... might be playing Russian Roulette with the internals. This would probably be closer to $6K installed.

3) Edelbrock - The most expensive option, but has a lot of advantages. First it is the cleanest looking install of any supercharger I have seen. Second, it runs at relatively low boost 5 or 6 psi, which probably would be safer for the internals. The hp numbers are comparable, but don't seem to be pushing my luck. I just think, by the time I bought the kit and had it installed & tuned, I would have $8K in a supercharger.

Thoughts and experiences would be helpful. Looking for low price, quiet idle (would rather hear the exhaust), absolute minimal risk to internals, high longevity.

Thanks in advance.

Dear Professor:

I've been thinking about this too, as I plan to go FI next spring. My deal is a little different in that I race my car a lot, bracket racing. I know something will break eventually. But, I want the next step in power and also want something streetable. I am either going with the DOB or the Paxton 2200. I made a list of the pros and cons of each and included some questions as well. Not trying to highjack this thread, just it's the same topic and I think this is relevant to what you are looking at, thinking about doing. Whichever one I get I will install myself. For me it will come down to if I want to take my car to the all out race level, roll bar, trans swap, forged bottom end, the works, eventually or not. If not, then I am leaning toward the DOB. And that intake is just so damn cool looking!

If I had 3.31s and stock converter, I'd go DOB. But 4.10s and 3K cnverter with the DOB would be a hoot and should push my car to about as fast as I can go without a roll bar, if I can get traction.

Super charger compare and contrast

Car usage: mainly drag raced in the 1/8 mile with drag MT SS drag radials. Do not want to move to the Radial Pro or slicks, as I drive the car to the track, etc. Needs to be fun/easy to drive on the street, too.


GT450 DOB

Pros:
-Price: 5000.00 (4400+300 for tune+200 for wideband, + need a pc, spark plugs?/misc 100.00)
-Tune: data logging, custom
-instant torque; should shine in the 1/8 mile; should be fun with slushbox
-current 3K converter should work well
-I have the suspension to handle the torque
-OEM look, very clean, stock looking
-included fuel pump/wiring upgrade (can up power without needing new.upgraded fuel system??)
-all GT parts so if I have a problem, a dealership could help with it?????


Cons:
-Install looks a little more involved than Paxton
-not as much max power?
-“hidden” costs? (are there any? like needed a better HE)
-heat soak?, still have the heat exchanger to install
-need wideband and portable PC (I currently have neither); (but will have better tune)


Paxton NOVI 2200

PROS:
-Price 5900.00, includes email tune, simple
-install looks straightforward
-car will drive “stock” under 3K
-big power later if wanted
-power ramping up would work good with drag radial tires
-BAP easier to install (but would need gt500 fuel system later for big power)
-plugs included
-would shine in the ¼ mile
-4.10 gears are well suited
-I’ve worked with brenspeed and had a good experience with them
-Includes an email tune. Already have SCT
-don't mind turning it to 6500 (d



Cons
$900.00 more than GT450 kit
-doesn’t look oem
-ramps up power over the curve, not as good for 1/8 mile where you need the power right away; or would want 4k converter (more money)
-to upgrade power might need gt500 fuel system???
-39#injectors (GT450 comes with 47# injectors)
-might need more converter

 

[Wes06]

My dob setup was roughly 4k. Maybe a little more including tune can't remember. But I did part it together even upgrading to a dual pass HE

 

[hockeygod]

Vortech requires moving the whole blower and bracket back as well, but an hour may be a bit of an exaggeration

It all depends on if your lucky enough to not have the tiny quarter inch pulley spacers fall out when you pull the assembly forward to route the belt. The Paxton 2200 I know is rated to 1000hp although I have a hard time seeing it ever hit that number as I already ha e it spinning up pretty fast with 3.12 pulley and 10% od pulley.

 

[Department Of Boost]

GT450 DOB

Pros:
-Price: 5000.00 (4400+300 for tune+200 for wideband, + need a pc, spark plugs?/misc 100.00)

Depends on how you buy it. If you get a complete kit (Phase III) that's accurate. If you get a Phase I and collect the rest of the parts yourself you can do it for a chunk less money. With the Phase III you're paying me to collect those parts for you.

-included fuel pump/wiring upgrade (can up power without needing new.upgraded fuel system??)

I'm not quite sure where the limit is on that pump/wiring combo. And of course with fuel systems there are a ton of variables. But, S&H Says that the pump/wiring that comes with the GT450 Phase III (their DIY405) is good for 575-600hp.

-all GT parts so if I have a problem, a dealership could help with it?????

Yeah, this is a huge plus. Just about everything is OEM. Which means either inexpensive take offs of getting it right through your local dealer.

Cons:

-Install looks a little more involved than Paxton

It is, but all PD blowers will be because the intake manifold needs to come off.

-not as much max power?

On a stock shortblock it doesn't matter what blower you go with, they all top out at 450rwhp (rod limit). Ultimately the Paxton will make more power on a built motor with a big fuel system, etc. But the M122 can always be replaced with a TVS on the GT450 so it's not like a different system would need to be purchased to "go big"

-“hidden” costs? (are there any? like needed a better HE)

Every PD blower needs a better HE. And the advantage of the GT450 is that you can get the HE you want when you get the kit so you don't end up buying two if you decide to upgrade later.

-heat soak?, still have the heat exchanger to install

The "heat soak issue" (which I really need to write an article about) is greatly misunderstood when being compared to Centri blowers. And a lot of it is going to depend on use. For drag strip use with time between rounds "heat soak" isn't nearly an issue like it would be at the road course or driving on the street. "Heat soak", be it intercooler systems, engine cooling systems, oil cooling systems, etc, etc, etc comes down to one thing. How fast do you want to go for how long? Different "jobs" require different solutions.

I saw a great video on I think it was I/Engineered where a "cooling guy" was describing how systems need to be set up, what they can do, etc. He did a lot of Porsche work. He said that the cooling system that they run on their 1200hp drag/mile cars is only good for 400hp in their road race cars.

Paxton NOVI 2200

PROS:
-Price 5900.00, includes email tune, simple

Email tune, yuck.

-car will drive “stock” under 3K

PD cars drive like stock under 3K too. It's only when you get your foot in it and the bypass valve closes that it makes boost.

 

[Kylar]

D.O.B FTW, I did mine for under 4k

 

[mrt2you]

D.O.B FTW, I did mine for under 4k

DOB can be easily done for less than 5K, if you don't have to have everything RIGHT NOW.
M122 superchargers sometimes sell for under $200 or less on ebay. stock 2013 intercoolers and heat exchangers sometimes sell for cheap on ebay also.

I did mine for the cost of the stage 1 kit, small pulley and the frankentensioner mod. for everything else I traded labor for my parts. I helped other people mod there GT500's and I got their parts for my labor. I am also a body man so for some parts I did body work along with helping mod their GT500's.

 

[Department Of Boost]

DOB can be easily done for less than 5K, if you don't have to have everything RIGHT NOW.
M122 superchargers sometimes sell for under $200 or less on ebay. stock 2013 intercoolers and heat exchangers sometimes sell for cheap on ebay also.

I did mine for the cost of the stage 1 kit, small pulley and the frankentensioner mod. for everything else I traded labor for my parts. I helped other people mod there GT500's and I got their parts for my labor. I am also a body man so for some parts I did body work along with helping mod their GT500's.

Have you gotten that on a dyno? That should hump with the TVS, big TB and CAI.