Boss 302 square tire setup, sway bar size?

Norm Peterson

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You'd only be installing relo brackets on a car that's intentionally being tweaked for better corner carving (what the 'square' tire setup tells me) because lowering is in the plans as well. If it wasn't, you'd be best advised to leave the rear suspension side view geometry alone and forget about relo brackets.

But assuming that lowering is in the plans, that tells me that the relationship between the front and rear spring rates is going to change. I'm assuming conventional "lowering springs" here, as opposed to coilovers, and generally this means a bigger increase in front spring rate than at the rear - and a forward shift in the distribution of lateral load transfer. Read slightly more understeer here if you're running somewhere enough negative camber for your hardest cornering. Was Rehagen aware of this lowering possibility?

Before writing off the notion of an adjustable rear bar entirely, you ought to at least inquire of Sam or possibly Kelly at BMR about whose relo brackets their bars are compatible with. I think Sam's bars are going to be closer to the range of rates you're currently looking at, though that's still uncertain on account of the unresolved spring question.

I can't help you about whose brackets and which bars they'll work with, as my car is not lowered now and probably never will be dropped much more than about 1/2" so I haven't had any reason to look into this. The Whiteline rear bar would probably clear any of the available brackets (certainly Whiteline's own), just that I haven't seen any stiffness data for it or how such data might compare to the stiffnesses listed above for OE and OE-type rear bars.


Eventually you have to just drive the car and decide if what you chose gives you what you want. If it ends up being either too loose or too pushy, none of these discussions about how many mm rear bar ought to work for you will matter any more. Right about here, the adjustable can give you options other than spending more $, assuming you were somewhere near right in estimating the stiffness you needed.


Norm
 
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Sky Render

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Installing relocation brackets on a car with stock ride height still provides the benefits of improved roll steer characteristics.

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sheizasosay

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Installing relocation brackets on a car with stock ride height still provides the benefits of improved roll steer characteristics.

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How? I don't agree with that based on my experience.
 

Sky Render

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How? I don't agree with that based on my experience.

Relocating the rear lower control arm axle mount causes the rear axle to "steer" in the opposite direction of the front axle under heavy cornering, making the car feel smaller. This is personal preference.

05%20Roll%20Steer%20Graph-L.jpg


The part of that graph you need to look at is the negative angle section. If theta starts negative (like with relocated rear control arms), then the longitudinal length of the control arm increases under compression.

EDIT: More diagramssss:

06%20Roll%20Steer%20Illustration-XL.jpg



http://www.motoiq.com/MagazineArtic...ptimizing-weight-transfer-and-roll-steer.aspx
 
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sheizasosay

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At 7 degrees my car went ape shit.

Edit- that was lowered .75" in the rear with the lowest hole in the relo. It would be well over 7 degrees if not lowered.
 

BMR Tech

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I find myself getting caught up, often, in roll steer discussions on the phone.

One thing I have noticed, after doing this stuff for so long....is, everyone has substantially different opinions on how they prefer the rear axle to steer.

I have some shops, and customers, who want a super steep LCA angle (short IC / high AS%) on cars with very aggressive roll stiffness, and R compounds........on the flip side, the guys who are running a harder compound tire, tend to prefer more of a parallel LCA.

Then - I get hit with the opposites!

It simply appears to be the driver's wants. Apparently, the wants are all over the place.

I will say, and have stated MANY times - the number of customers and shops I have dealt with, who prefer a short IC / steep LCA drop at the axle - increases drastically each year. 5 years ago, not a single customer who I spoke to about handling, would even consider LCA Brackets. These days, it is all the rage. I think a lot of the reason is due to the Boss coming with them. Just a hunch though.
 

Norm Peterson

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"Loose" roll steer is probably worth a little at autocross as long as you can stay on top of things - and if you can't, the run is toast anyway.

On a big track, particularly on a turn that also crests a rise, I think it'd be asking for trouble because as the rear unloads the oversteer effect gets exaggerated.


Incidentally, the rear roll center height plays a relatively minor part in the S197's roll steer in addition to its influence on roll angle (it's the other point that defines the axle's own "roll axis").


Norm
 

sheizasosay

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I find myself getting caught up, often, in roll steer discussions on the phone.

One thing I have noticed, after doing this stuff for so long....is, everyone has substantially different opinions on how they prefer the rear axle to steer.

I have some shops, and customers, who want a super steep LCA angle (short IC / high AS%) on cars with very aggressive roll stiffness, and R compounds........on the flip side, the guys who are running a harder compound tire, tend to prefer more of a parallel LCA.

Then - I get hit with the opposites!

It simply appears to be the driver's wants. Apparently, the wants are all over the place.

I will say, and have stated MANY times - the number of customers and shops I have dealt with, who prefer a short IC / steep LCA drop at the axle - increases drastically each year. 5 years ago, not a single customer who I spoke to about handling, would even consider LCA Brackets. These days, it is all the rage. I think a lot of the reason is due to the Boss coming with them. Just a hunch though.

i argued with Gmitch about relos for a little while. I'm fairly certain that Ford putting them on the Boss had an impact on his thoughts on relos.

I hear you on prefrences Kelly and Sky. And I have argued "why don't people tune with roll steer?". Bottom line is, if you can alter it, and makes you faster around the track then use it.

My experience with tuning roll steer ranged from negative 7 degrees all the way to positive 7 degrees and several spots in between. For MY car I am ok with -2 to +2 and I have it right where I want it, which is 1 degree headed towards oversteer.

EDIT- I still don't think relos on a non-lowered car is a good idea.
 
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Sky Render

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Yep, that's why I said it's personal preference. Past a certain basic point (good tires, good dampers, reducing body roll), a lot of suspension tuning is driver preference. I freaking love, love, LOVE the roll steer characteristics with relocation brackets. But it's MY CAR. Norm Peterson, sheizasosay, or gmitch might drive my car and tell me I'm nuts for having it set up that way.

:crazy:
 

Norm Peterson

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It'll be driver preference and situation-specific.

I sure wouldn't have wanted 7° LCA inclination (uphill toward chassis) yesterday. T1 at NJMP/Lightning is about a 70 mph turn on aging but fairly decent street rubber (I'll try to put up a screen shot or two looking into it off a video when I get a little more time). Basically, it crests a hill and has a small but unsettling heave between the apex and track out (that I've never actually seen as a visible pavement heave) that gives the tail a little wiggle as it is. With about 2.4% static axle steer in the vehicle understeer direction it's not too bad but definitely gets your attention, and you have to trust your car to inherently want to straighten itself out. At ~6.5% (static) in the vehicle oversteer direction you'd be taking that turn at least a little easier - remember that your ride height over a crest is slightly higher than static, which drives roll steer further in the loose direction, so you could be at as much as 10% axle steer.


Norm
 

Norm Peterson

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As promised. People screw up here from time to time.

Approaching
norm-peterson-albums-track-days-picture10485-approaching-t1.jpg



Almost cresting
norm-peterson-albums-track-days-picture10486-almost-cresting-rise-%40-t1.jpg




Cresting. Tail running wide to the left → → → car yawing right
norm-peterson-albums-track-days-picture10487-cresting-rise-%40-t1.jpg



Norm
 

Rabee

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I went with 20mm rear sway bar (2005-2009 GT take-off) as recommended by Rehagen racing.
I will have 4 days on the same track this month, will try it out and work on the rear dampers settings too to get the preferred balance.
Will report back...
 

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But for the OP, keep a square setup and learn to drive the car. At this point you are trying to make adjustments for something you haven't experienced yet.

+1 Drive a square setup - works great for me. You can also rotate your tires, prolonging their life.
 

Rabee

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+1 Drive a square setup - works great for me. You can also rotate your tires, prolonging their life.
The main reason I went with square is the ability to rotate the tires for longevity reasons, otherwise I would've gone staggered and did not have to deal with the sway bars business :)
 

Vorshlag-Fair

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I have 2013 Boss 302 ( all stock except CC plate ) and I am planning to go square tire setup (293/35-18) for the track.
People have gone square on the Boss and they noticed an increased oversteer due to the fact that the stock suspension was setup for staggered tire sizes with 255 front and 285 rear.
So, naturally, I would think putting a smaller rear sway bar will help resume the neutral handling characteristics.

i-c2JFNZn.jpg


Most "people" who offer up their opinions on square set-ups and handling woes are just parroting what others have told them. And its all bunk. Yes, everyone has a voice on the forums, but not every voice has the same impact, experience, or testing to back up their opinions.

DSC_6115-M.jpg


Look, these Mustangs in stock form are designed to UNDERSTEER. Yes, even the Boss302, with the staggered wheel sizes only amplifying that characteristic. The shocks that come on all factory built S197 Mustangs SUUUUUUCK. Yes, even the Tokicos on the Boss. SUUUUUUCK. The spring rates are SOOOOOOOOOFT and the ride heights TALLLLLLLLL. This car is made for the masses, able to ford a stream, drive on gravel roads, and plow through deep snow. Not everyone has those needs so we have an active aftermarket that modifies these cars with lower ride heights, former spring rates and proper dampers. But there are more bad upgrade parts than good - you have to do careful research to find that out, or learn it first hand.

DSC_8948-M.jpg


My advice is: don't put too much credence in what factory wheel sizes have affect on handling, or worry about how one change might "alter the sacred balance" of a Boss302 or a GT. These cars are as sacred as an ox cart in stock form. We have tested and proven how these cars go faster and are actually easier to drive on ever wider wheels and tires. The car above, my 2013 Mustang GT, was much better than stock but still a handful to drive with 18x10" wheels and 295mm tires at both ends. Going with wider tires only makes them handle better and easier to push hard.

DSC_1126-M.jpg


We have gone from 255mm tires up to 345mm tires and still haven't seen a drop off in our logged data or lap times, from autocross to road course speeds, in our various Mustang tests. Our current set-up has 335mm fronts and 345mm rears, which is a slight stagger but only because the 345/35/18 front is too tall to clear our front flares - if they made a shorter 345mm tire I would have it up front.

DSC_1268-M.jpg


We went up from 315mm all around tires in February and dropped 1.4 seconds in back to back tests at the same 1.7 mile track and same conditions when moving up to these 335/345mm tires. So when it comes to S197 Mustangs and tires, BIGGER IS BETTER. We have yet to find a performance tire so wide that it slows the car down... it seemingly doesn't exist for these heavy cars.

And don't fret about what swaybar to get to match with your new wider tires until you drive the car, as it might feel fine to you. Swaybars are not magical - they are just a tuning tool, and a rather crude one at that. It is a hunk of steel with some bends in it, that twists and reduces sway - hopefully. If you have track or autocross aspirations then get an adjustable swaybar at both ends of the car with multiple adjustment holes/settings, and use that to fine tune the handling. Don't use swaybars as a crutch for a weak spring rate, though.

_DSC1859%20copy_1-L.jpg


We use the Whiteline bars because they have the most adjustments, a wide range of firmness (that covers both softer and stiffer than any of the stock bits). The rear bar also allows for a wider tire and wheel to be used, because they don't mount like stock and poke right where the tire needs to be (inboard) with an 11" or 12" wheel out back.

Cheers,
 

Norm Peterson

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My advice is: don't put too much credence in what factory wheel sizes have affect on handling, or worry about how one change might "alter the sacred balance" of a Boss302 or a GT.
After about 2008, the only credence I put into what Ford has been doing with the wheel sizes was that they were intentionally dialing out little bits of cornering support for the tires. Sometimes with 1/2" narrower wheels than before, sometimes with wheel width staggers.

Remember that in 2008 the GT's 235/50-18 tires and the GT500's 255/45-18 front tires came mounted on wheels of max-recommended width for those respective sizes.


Norm
 

2008 V6

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My advice is: don't put too much credence in what factory wheel sizes have affect on handling, or worry about how one change might "alter the sacred balance" of a Boss302 or a GT. These cars are as sacred as an ox cart in stock form. We have tested and proven how these cars go faster and are actually easier to drive on ever wider wheels and tires. The car above, my 2013 Mustang GT, was much better than stock but still a handful to drive with 18x10" wheels and 295mm tires at both ends. Going with wider tires only makes them handle better and easier to push hard.

DSC_1126-M.jpg


We have gone from 255mm tires up to 345mm tires and still haven't seen a drop off in our logged data or lap times, from autocross to road course speeds, in our various Mustang tests. Our current set-up has 335mm fronts and 345mm rears, which is a slight stagger but only because the 345/35/18 front is too tall to clear our front flares - if they made a shorter 345mm tire I would have it up front.
Cheers,[/QUOTE]


FYI – I’m sure most have already run the numbers –

– (4) - 335 x 30 x 18” tires give a theoretical total width of 52.76”. Put those under a 3700LBs car including driver = 70.129 LBs per inch of rubber on the ground. NOT VERY Good.
– (4) – 295 x 30 x 18” tires give a theoretical total width of 46.46”. Put those under a 2800LBs car including driver and you have 60.27LBs per inch of rubber on the ground. About 14% advantage.

As you can see – Weight is a killer. Add that to a huge frontal area, high CD and judge the results for your self.
I am stile surprised at how well terry is doing with his set up - Very impressive – I don’t even want to think about the yearly expense of running 335s in as many events as Terry does. I guess I’m just jealous
 
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Rabee

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Thanks for all of you guys for participating in this thread!
As I said before I put 20mm rear sway bar and in less than 2 weeks I will be at Gingerman raceway for 2 days to test the new tire setup with the sway bar and I will report back...
 

Vorshlag-Fair

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but...but...but...I mostly parrot you and Jason!!!
hehe... you know I'm not talking about you Mark, or really anyone in particular on this sub-forum. There is almost always very good advice here, and this corner-carvers section has a surprising amount of "group wisdom" growing out of real tech and track tested experiences instead of internet wive's tales or fanboi regurgitation.

But on other forums, especially some other Mustang forums... oh it hurts my head to read some of the drivel spewed forth as gospel elsewhere. :mad2:
 

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