Brembo Brakes worth it??

[csamsh]

Your whole argument is nonsense at this point. Of course all vehicles of the same weight would get into ABS at the exact same point of pressure in the braking system. But these vehicle are not even close to being the same weight, therefore more brake torque is necessary on the heavier vehicles. While you made many good points about how braking systems work, this is not one of them.

That's probably why he said "Ballasted them to the same weight"

Also if anybody's wondering, Brembo blanks weigh ~25#

 

[brent_G]

He said put them all at the same weight...

 

[hamish]

Your whole argument is nonsense at this point. Of course all vehicles of the same weight would get into ABS at the exact same point of pressure in the braking system. But these vehicle are not even close to being the same weight, therefore more brake torque is necessary on the heavier vehicles. While you made many good points about how braking systems work, this is not one of them.

Swapping Brembos onto a non brembo car might cause a potential issue.

The GT has a different ABS control module than the GT500, there may be some important programming info that is not included in the GT.

Actually here is a good read, limited by your ABS Module.

http://www.s197forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=39915&highlight=Gt+500+abs+module

 

[Whiskey11]

Your whole argument is nonsense at this point. Of course all vehicles of the same weight would get into ABS at the exact same point of pressure in the braking system. But these vehicle are not even close to being the same weight, therefore more brake torque is necessary on the heavier vehicles. While you made many good points about how braking systems work, this is not one of them.

You are missing the point. In brake distance testing they do a very quick ramp up to ABS engagement. Once at that point it wont matter one damn bit what the weight of the car is, the tires themselves limit the braking capability. A lighter car will stop in a shorter distance than a heavier one but only because of MOMENTUM. More brake torque will only decrease the time to get into ABS. What it does do is change how the brake pedal "feels" since it develops more torque sooner.

When comparing a base 2013/2014 GT with standard brakes to one with Brembos the only difference in braking distance is due to the better tires on the Brembo/Track Pack cars... THAT IS IT. The weight difference isn't that big between the two cars. Put the Brembo/Track Pack wheels/tires on the standard GT and I can bet the stopping distance is within a foot.

 

[GoneFord]

You are missing the point. In brake distance testing they do a very quick ramp up to ABS engagement. Once at that point it wont matter one damn bit what the weight of the car is, the tires themselves limit the braking capability. A lighter car will stop in a shorter distance than a heavier one but only because of MOMENTUM. More brake torque will only decrease the time to get into ABS. What it does do is change how the brake pedal "feels" since it develops more torque sooner.

When comparing a base 2013/2014 GT with standard brakes to one with Brembos the only difference in braking distance is due to the better tires on the Brembo/Track Pack cars... THAT IS IT. The weight difference isn't that big between the two cars. Put the Brembo/Track Pack wheels/tires on the standard GT and I can bet the stopping distance is within a foot.

You raised some good points, but I believe your whole discussion leaves out the most important aspect of braking - the driver and his ability to avoid ABS intervention. As an autocrosser, I'm surprised you left that out.

In my opinion, brake torque is the biggest enabler for the driver. Increased disc radius, clamping force and heat dissipation contribute to this process and allows the skilled driver to maximize the braking force. The Brembos are an improvement in those areas.

Does the average daily driven Mustang need massive brakes - no. But does the increased capability of the braking system give me greater confidence and in the end better performance - yes. Contrary to your assertion, the tires aren't all that matter.

Otherwise, I guess we're all dupes of the advertising industry. Brake swept surface, effective hydraulic pressure, pressure distribution across the pad area, heat dissipation - none of that makes any difference... just buy better tires. Oh, and a lighter car.

And I repeatedly experienced brake fade with the stock brakes and have yet to once experience it with the Brembo upgrade. Mine's a DD but I get on it every chance I get!

Lastly, about concern over adding weight - that's a balancing act difficult to master but the brakes are an area where I'll gladly accept a little gain (pun intended).

 

[Mustang30212]

So let's say you are running 130 and stomp on the brakes.......the standard brakes wouldn't begin to fade quicker due to the smaller surface/clamping area. You are actually saying that in this type of driving condition it doesn't help having larger rotors with extra pistons and more brake caliper surface to dissipate the heat and stop faster/better/safer?

If this is true then why does Ford, Shelby, Baer etc sell them as upgraded packages? Why not just put better tires on the cars?

Not being a Dick, I just don't agree with your reasoning under all driving conditions be it street duty or track. I know for a fact that my car out brakes my friends car (same wheel tire combo) by a mile in side by side and seat of the pants comparisons.

I don't claim to be an engiineer or expert......but when it comes to brakes.......better is better.

RH

 

[DRock]

I don't think about this stuff. I'm like a monkey.

Ooooooo shiny, I'll take it.

Not you ha. Your points are all valid completely.

Its the one saying oh i have them already but not sure if i should put them on or will they really make a difference.

Thats annoying.

 

[Whiskey11]

You raised some good points, but I believe your whole discussion leaves out the most important aspect of braking - the driver and his ability to avoid ABS intervention. As an autocrosser, I'm surprised you left that out.

In my opinion, brake torque is the biggest enabler for the driver. Increased disc radius, clamping force and heat dissipation contribute to this process and allows the skilled driver to maximize the braking force. The Brembos are an improvement in those areas.

Does the average daily driven Mustang need massive brakes - no. But does the increased capability of the braking system give me greater confidence and in the end better performance - yes. Contrary to your assertion, the tires aren't all that matter.

Otherwise, I guess we're all dupes of the advertising industry. Brake swept surface, effective hydraulic pressure, pressure distribution across the pad area, heat dissipation - none of that makes any difference... just buy better tires. Oh, and a lighter car.

And I repeatedly experienced brake fade with the stock brakes and have yet to once experience it with the Brembo upgrade. Mine's a DD but I get on it every chance I get!

Lastly, about concern over adding weight - that's a balancing act difficult to master but the brakes are an area where I'll gladly accept a little gain (pun intended).

Correct, there is a narrow window in which the driver can "out brake" the ABS units but that isn't how stopping distance tests are performed.

I've never experienced fade, even autocrossing, with stock 2009 GT brakes and I'm talking bone stock down to the pads and fluid that Ford put in it in 2008 when the car was made. I've done a lot to test the brakes on my car and maybe mine is a fluke (unlikely) but I can't say I've ever noticed it. I've also gotten the brakes hot enough to brown and blacken the insides of my stock wheels for what it's worth.

No one is saying you are being duped about them being better performers in other areas (brake torque, heat management, pad wear, etc) and I'm not debating that but when it comes down to raw braking performance when it comes to 60-0 tests the difference between the Brembo setup and the stock floating calipers is going to be from the tires alone.

So let's say you are running 130 and stomp on the brakes.......the standard brakes wouldn't begin to fade quicker due to the smaller surface/clamping area. You are actually saying that in this type of driving condition it doesn't help having larger rotors with extra pistons and more brake caliper surface to dissipate the heat and stop faster/better/safer?

If this is true then why does Ford, Shelby, Baer etc sell them as upgraded packages? Why not just put better tires on the cars?

Not being a Dick, I just don't agree with your reasoning under all driving conditions be it street duty or track. I know for a fact that my car out brakes my friends car (same wheel tire combo) by a mile in side by side and seat of the pants comparisons.

I don't claim to be an engiineer or expert......but when it comes to brakes.......better is better.

RH

In a single 130-0 stop I doubt you'd experience fade to sway the results. Do it repeatedly though and the differences will definitely show up with the advantage going to the Brembos. Keep in mind the piston surface area on the brake pad is actually LESS with the 14" Brembo 4 pots than the 2 piston floating calipers. Why? So that the rest of the brake components didn't have to be changed to match the difference in piston size. What you are experiencing is the brake torque difference from having a larger rotor and a larger brake pad.

Are you sure your car out brakes your friends with the same wheel/tire combo or is there a driver induced difference involved? Seat of the pants will not tell you you stopped shorter and is VERY deceiving.

I'm not saying that the Brembo's aren't an upgrade as they certainly ARE an upgrade but on a street driven vehicle you will gain nothing over the stock setup except looks and added brake torque (and earlier ABS engagement).

 

[GoneFord]

... I've never experienced fade, even autocrossing, with stock 2009 GT brakes and I'm talking bone stock down to the pads and fluid that Ford put in it in 2008 when the car was made. I've done a lot to test the brakes on my car and maybe mine is a fluke (unlikely) but I can't say I've ever noticed it. I've also gotten the brakes hot enough to brown and blacken the insides of my stock wheels for what it's worth....

No one is saying you are being duped about them being better performers in other areas (brake torque, heat management, pad wear, etc) and I'm not debating that but when it comes down to raw braking performance when it comes to 60-0 tests the difference between the Brembo setup and the stock floating calipers is going to be from the tires alone.

I won't argue the methodology of 60-0 brake testing (like the ones I used to watch on the old Motor Trend TV show years and year ago. On those it just looked like they slammed the pedal to the floor board and let the ABS do the work) because I'm no expert in it. But for "spirited" driving - high speed, WOT, boosted acceleration followed by prodigious brake application to get back down close to the speed limit - my brakes would fade after a few runs like that if not given adequate time to cool down. Of course you're probably not making too many triple digit sprints in many autocross events; just repeated rapid transitions from acceleration to deceleration - right?

... Keep in mind the piston surface area on the brake pad is actually LESS with the 14" Brembo 4 pots than the 2 piston floating calipers. Why? So that the rest of the brake components didn't have to be changed to match the difference in piston size. What you are experiencing is the brake torque difference from having a larger rotor and a larger brake pad.
...

Not sure this is true. The Brembo has four pistons all with uniform hydraulic pressure applied. One of the variables required to calculate clamping force (which is a component of brake torque) is the total piston area of the caliper. I didn't do the math but I'd bet the four Brembo pistons provide a larger total area than the single piston in the stock caliper. In addition, a single piston doesn't apply uniform pressure on both sides of the rotor like a fixed milti-piston caliper. Just look at how your pads wear and you know the force isn't perfectly equalized. Lastly, the floating caliper is subject to binding and flex and therefore isn't nearly as rigid as the more sturdily built Brembo caliper. It's kind of like a four vs. three vs. two valve efficiency comparison.

But again, on a DD that's driven by the average Joe the difference is probably inconsequential if not unnoticeable.

 

[Whiskey11]

http://corner-carvers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=43682

4% less piston area per Jack Hidley of Maximum Motorsports

 

[GoneFord]

http://corner-carvers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=43682

4% less piston area per Jack Hidley of Maximum Motorsports

I was right. The four pistons do provide a larger piston area.

An interesting thread. Thanks for sharing it.

However, I take issue with his claim. His explanation in response to a later poster clearly identifies a flaw in such an approach to calculating piston area because it ignores some obvious deficiency in the design of floating calipers vs. fixed:

"You only count the pistons on one side of the caliper.

With a floating caliper, the opposite side of the caliper provides the same clamping force as the side with the pistons. If this force on the opposite side of the caliper didn't exist, the caliper would keep moving as there wouldn't be an equal and opposite force to put things in equilibrium.

With a fixed caliper, it is much more obvious that there are two equal and opposite forces."
​

You see, I've never removed a pair of floating caliper pads and found them equally worn because they don't wear equally. They can't because the caliper suffers deformation due to torque and friction as it rides the "floating" pins. The clamping force on the inside pad is derivative.

He notes that with the fixed caliper, "it is much more obvious that there are two equal and opposite forces" but is ignoring the fact that the force is in fact not equal – it is simply constrained by the design which doesn’t mean equal. Isn’t the force generated on one side with the floating caliper? And isn’t the force in a fixed caliper equally applied to both sides. As I see it, fluid dynamics ensures an equal pressure is exerted to both sides of the caliper in the fixed caliper design in contradistinction to the single side pressure generated by the single piston floating caliper. Seems to me this makes it quite obvious why better braking systems rely on fixed not floating caliper designs.

Later he says;

“For the 2005-2010 front brakes, the caliper piston area is 2,904mm^2. The effective radius of the OEM pad on the OEM 12.44" disc is 10.49". If you multiply the piston area by the effective radius, this will give you a relative brake torque with baloney units. For this combination we get 30,463bu.

For the GT500 front brakes, the caliper piston area is 2,777mm^2. The effective radius of the GT500 pad on the GT500 13.97" disc is 11.39". For this combination we get 31,624bu.

So for a given brake pedal force the GT500 brakes will generate 4% more brake torque than the OEM 2005-2010 brakes.”
​

Nonetheless, if that is truly how one calculates piston area - then I guess I lose the bet. But I think I still win the argument because the Brembo generates more brake torque…

 

[brent_G]

Money = 4%

 

[TGR96]

Went ahead and put my GT500 Brembos on my base 13 GT. on initial test drive, no really noticeable, seat of the pants difference. But they do look cool. :-/

 

[DRock]

Go run it up to 100 and slam the brakes 5 times. Lemme know

 

[Department Of Boost]

Go run it up to 100 and slam the brakes 5 times. Lemme know

And this right here is why some people need big brakes. Stock brakes won't like this much. My StopTech's on the other hand would soak up those 5 stops and ask for more.

Big brakes don’t stop sooner (aside from the few small arguments that don’t factor into my point) than stock brakes do. The first time you haul it down from 75mph. What big brakes allow you to do is haul the car down from 75mph, back to back, multiple times. A set of good/big brakes will perform 100% a lot more times than stock brakes will. And the better the brakes get, the more times they will perform at 100%.

So back to the original question. “Do I need big brakes?” If you are just driving around like a normal, semi-sane person no. Your stock brakes will haul you down from some very high speeds if they are only asked to do it once or twice without a cool down. Beat them hard enough and you will glaze the pads and warp the rotors though. 99.9% of people don’t need a brake upgrade.

Big brakes do look cool though. And even though most people won’t ever need them, they will be able to find some value in them just because they like how they look.

AutoX guys probably don’t need them. The speeds aren’t that high and the brake temps don’t get very hot.

Do you want to do a couple of track days a year? Definitely get some brakes, and cooling ducts wouldn’t be a bad idea either. You will make some heat at the roadrace track.

I have absolutely no use for these….or the money. But I would love a set for my blue car. Mmmmmm, carbon ceramic.

 

[GoneFord]

And this right here is why some people need big brakes. Stock brakes won't like this much. My StopTech's on the other hand would soak up those 5 stops and ask for more.

Big brakes don’t stop sooner (aside from the few small arguments that don’t factor into my point) than stock brakes do. The first time you haul it down from 75mph. What big brakes allow you to do is haul the car down from 75mph, back to back, multiple times. A set of good/big brakes will perform 100% a lot more times than stock brakes will. And the better the brakes get, the more times they will perform at 100%.

So back to the original question. “Do I need big brakes?” If you are just driving around like a normal, semi-sane person no. Your stock brakes will haul you down from some very high speeds if they are only asked to do it once or twice without a cool down. Beat them hard enough and you will glaze the pads and warp the rotors though. 99.9% of people don’t need a brake upgrade.

Big brakes do look cool though. And even though most people won’t ever need them, they will be able to find some value in them just because they like how they look.

AutoX guys probably don’t need them. The speeds aren’t that high and the brake temps don’t get very hot.

Do you want to do a couple of track days a year? Definitely get some brakes, and cooling ducts wouldn’t be a bad idea either. You will make some heat at the roadrace track.

I have absolutely no use for these….or the money. But I would love a set for my blue car. Mmmmmm, carbon ceramic.

Agree on all points but with one quibble... when it comes to Mustang folks who among us is truly sane? A fair number of us probably don't rise to "semi-sane" when it comes to our cars...

And those carbon ceramic brake setups are truly insane!

 

[Paul.]

^ yeah throw some more unsprung weight up front that you don't need.

Who cares? This is my daily driver. WTF do I care if it has a little more weight on the front wheels? I have 6 piston 15" Brembos! Maybe I should dump my big Forgestar 20s too and move down to some lightweight 18s with less tire so they weigh less too. My point is - you're missing the point.


All this tech talk is good, and being a former SCCA ITE racer, I agree with many points in this thread... but that's not why most folks on this board are going to put Brembos on their cars. They want them because big brakes are cool. That's that.

We could all get to work much more efficiently and with far lower cost if we just drove a Prius, but then we'd a bunch of gay hippies, and we're not.

Paul.

 

[DRock]

And this right here is why some people need big brakes. Stock brakes won't like this much. My StopTech's on the other hand would soak up those 5 stops and ask for more.

Big brakes don’t stop sooner (aside from the few small arguments that don’t factor into my point) than stock brakes do. The first time you haul it down from 75mph. What big brakes allow you to do is haul the car down from 75mph, back to back, multiple times. A set of good/big brakes will perform 100% a lot more times than stock brakes will. And the better the brakes get, the more times they will perform at 100%.

So back to the original question. “Do I need big brakes?” If you are just driving around like a normal, semi-sane person no. Your stock brakes will haul you down from some very high speeds if they are only asked to do it once or twice without a cool down. Beat them hard enough and you will glaze the pads and warp the rotors though. 99.9% of people don’t need a brake upgrade.

Big brakes do look cool though. And even though most people won’t ever need them, they will be able to find some value in them just because they like how they look.

AutoX guys probably don’t need them. The speeds aren’t that high and the brake temps don’t get very hot.

Do you want to do a couple of track days a year? Definitely get some brakes, and cooling ducts wouldn’t be a bad idea either. You will make some heat at the roadrace track.

I have absolutely no use for these….or the money. But I would love a set for my blue car. Mmmmmm, carbon ceramic.

Solid advice/info right there.

 

[Ingwe]

Didn't read every comment so apologies if I recount info that's already been posted.

According to our 'How much does it weigh?' thread the stock calipers come in at 11lbs each compared to the GT500 caliper at 10 each. The GT500 2 piece rotors come in at 25lbs over the 19lb stockers. So all in all you're losing 5lbs per side by upgrading to the GT500s. Not a huge difference but every little helps.

A few hard stops within the first 2 months of owning my car and i'd get a vibe every time I applied the brakes which was down to the stock rotors having warped under the heat. One of the first things I did after a CAI and tune was upgrade my stock brakes as I never felt that confident on them. Difference was night and day. There's not a lot of stop-go traffic over here but there are a lot of cars on the road. Add to that the poor quality of driving and you find yourself stopping relatively hard quite regularly. As a few have mentioned before, the repeated braking makes the GT500 upgrade 100% worthwhile.

In summary: The GT500 upgrade may be overkill depending on your driving conditions but in all cases the stock brake system is inadequate. Upgrade pads and rotors at a minimum.

 

[Whiskey11]

Didn't read every comment so apologies if I recount info that's already been posted.

According to our 'How much does it weigh?' thread the stock calipers come in at 11lbs each compared to the GT500 caliper at 10 each. The GT500 2 piece rotors come in at 25lbs over the 19lb stockers. So all in all you're losing 5lbs per side by upgrading to the GT500s. Not a huge difference but every little helps.

A few hard stops within the first 2 months of owning my car and i'd get a vibe every time I applied the brakes which was down to the stock rotors having warped under the heat. One of the first things I did after a CAI and tune was upgrade my stock brakes as I never felt that confident on them. Difference was night and day. There's not a lot of stop-go traffic over here but there are a lot of cars on the road. Add to that the poor quality of driving and you find yourself stopping relatively hard quite regularly. As a few have mentioned before, the repeated braking makes the GT500 upgrade 100% worthwhile.

In summary: The GT500 upgrade may be overkill depending on your driving conditions but in all cases the stock brake system is inadequate. Upgrade pads and rotors at a minimum.

I disagree completely with your assessment of the brakes. If they were completely inadequate for all cases then everyone who even thought about touching their brake pedal would be clamoring to get Brembos and the simple fact of the matter is that you do not need them. In your case it sounds like paying better attention to the road ahead of you will save you money on brakes as well as learning to not "park" your car with the brakes on if they are hot. In stop and go traffic with hot brakes you need to learn to keep creeping forward every few minutes and not use your brakes when you can as having the pads constantly against the rotors is exactly what is causing the warped brakes.

I've done nearly 3 complete years of autocrossing and 40k street miles on my stock 09 GT calipers, pads, lines, fluids, rotors and aside from a longer pedal travel due to wear and tear I have no desire to change anything out because they lack performance. I also think your brake weight estimates are a bit off. The OEM blanks on the GT500 and Brembo cars are not two piece rotors and weigh a decent bit more than the 12.4" rotors and the 13.2" rotors found in the 05-10 GT's and the new base GT's. I also have not warped my rotors despite abusing them in ways I'm sure your stop and go traffic couldn't hope to abuse them. I've never experienced fade and probably never will. They didn't get hot enough to fade when hot lapping my car for 6 runs straight on a 60 second course on a day that was 95º and 80% humidity. That is far more than adequate for a DD car.

I DO agree with your comment on pads and rotors and would add lines and fluid to that mix as well to really get the most out of the stock system but some common sense driving while in stop and go traffic will also do wonders to keeping your rotors from warping and your pads from hating you.