BS3 with the new 5.0

[nightflight]

anyone know if the BS3 could be used with the new 5.0, i assume no because there is no cam lockouts available that i can find for it,i just wanted to run it by the group to see if you guys came up with anything,i was building a tt 5.4 3v but im really liking the new 5.0 any info would be awesome,thanks in advance guys

 

[Mike@PowerHouse]

Just make your own cam gears, It wouldnt be too difficult to do, especially if you are considering going w/ an aftermarket controller.

 

[nightflight]

thats what i am thinking about doing possibly designing and producing a cam gear setup for the coyote,im gonna look into it tonight

 

[Mike@PowerHouse]

You can contact Michael at L&M Engines, He would definitely be able to help you out.

 

[20115.0ALLGO]

it will work. but they must be solid gears.

 

[JeremyH]

Keep the 5.4 the extra cubes will work better with turbos.

 

[GrnBullitt08]

+1... stay with the 5.4

 

[05yellowgt]

My biggest concern is that one of the best features of the Coyote is the TriVCT. The system seems to be much improved over the 3v and it can allow optimizations for MANY different situations in the same tune.

 

[sportinawoody]

if your gonna lockout the cams id just stay with the 5.4 but if youre gonna try an keep the vct active id definitely do the 5.0, variable cams will make all the difference over the inches. hell look what jpc is doing on a stock 5.0 with 12lbs from a novi ! and i have no idea if big stuff 3 will work so ill sit down now

 

[Towelly]

Motec...... Motec already has support for the TriVCT.... Just a FYI...

 

[05yellowgt]

Motec...... Motec already has support for the TriVCT.... Just a FYI...

^^^Here's your answer^^^

 

[Towelly]

The only problem is... Motec is $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$...

 

[McClane]

I don't understand why people want to yank the Ford ECU off of these engines and spend big money on aftermarket stuff that is a step backwards in technology. The new ECUs in these cars are super fast, run widebands from the factory and have TI VCT.... What else could you need tuning wise or am I missing something?

 

[Full_Tilt]

I don't understand why people want to yank the Ford ECU off of these engines and spend big money on aftermarket stuff that is a step backwards in technology. The new ECUs in these cars are super fast, run widebands from the factory and have TI VCT.... What else could you need tuning wise or am I missing something?

Maybe because of the $900 price tag for an SCT tuner box and software (borderline ridiculous imho)

Im waiting for cheaper tuning options for sure. I would be willing to sacrifice adjustability of the VVT (i.e. let the stock ECU control it) if I could tune fuels and ignition properly with a piggyback for a reasonable price.

 

[05yellowgt]

Maybe because of the $900 price tag for an SCT tuner box and software (borderline ridiculous imho)

Im waiting for cheaper tuning options for sure. I would be willing to sacrifice adjustability of the VVT (i.e. let the stock ECU control it) if I could tune fuels and ignition properly with a piggyback for a reasonable price.

So hold on a second. You don't want to $900 on a SCT tuner and PRP package, but you will spend $2000+ for a stand alone ECU???

 

[Full_Tilt]

So hold on a second. You don't want to $900 on a SCT tuner and PRP package, but you will spend $2000+ for a stand alone ECU???

No....
I explicitly said "piggyback" given that it would be less expensive, or of course a less expensive way to tune the factory ECU.
Also, $1000 is about what you can expect to pay for many very good and very capable standalone ECUs, things like MoTec are in a whole different category than the vast majority of standalone options.

This is an extreme example, but it shows what can be done:
The OBDI Honda ECU was "cracked" many years ago by a grounp of very intelligent programers, electrical engineers, and other hobbiest. They did this because they wanted to tune their ECU, and possibly make a ittle money too.
Today you can take a stock Honda ECU, solder in ~15 bucks worth or parts (including the chip/socket) and tune with open source freeware.
There are some versions with more features that cost a little bit of money, but its still very, very cheap.

Like I said, thats an extreme example, and it is based on the idea of a "chippable" ECU, which may not be possible with these cars.

The point is, the fact that SCT can make a programmer for these cars means that someone has already broken the code and understands how the ECU functions and how to modify it. Not to mention the fact that they were able to crack it almost instantly.
Its only a matter of time until someone finds a less absurdly priced option, and thats what Im going to wait for.

900 bucks for tuning electronics and software (that I cant even find a damn screenshot of) is totally ridiculous.

 

[05yellowgt]

The Ford ECU's especially starting with the 05+ Mustangs are some of the most complex factory ECU systems out there. They are not chippable ECU's either. The reason SCT and Diablo are able to "crack" the code is because they have insides sources both in the form of former ECU engineers for Ford as well as contacts with current engineers.

Sniper tuning is a more affordable option that the SCT PRP, but I don't think they have tuning software for the 2011, or even the 2011 for that matter, at least according to their website. Even if a piggyback system were available, I'm not sure how effective it would be because of just how complex the 2011 ECU is.

 

[Full_Tilt]

Well what makes it tricky is the VVT, Im sure they are too complicated for a piggyback to work in the tradition (terrible) way, in which it changes the calibration of the MAP sensor or airflow meter. The way to do it would be for the the injectors/coils to be directly driven off of the secondary ECU, while it reads the sensor outputs, meanwhile the stock ECU sits there and does what it normally does, unaware that its not actually controlling fuel/ignition.
The problem with this is that the VVT may not be based on a simple RPM vs load relationship, so the maps would need to be constantly changing with VVT settings. Basically have a set of maps for incrimental changes in cam angles with the values extrapolated between maps just as they are between cells.
That is of course, a lot of maps with VVT on both cams.
The other option would be to take VVT control into your own hands (theyre typically a pretty simply PWM control), but the factory computer will most likely shit a chicken...

Thats all it really comes down to. If VVT is predictable, it may be possible to piggyback MSIII, AEM F/IC, Adaptronic, or some other inexpensive EMS. If its not predictable, then we are at the mercy of this cornered market.

 

[Mike Rousch]

Its only a matter of time until someone finds a less absurdly priced option, and thats what Im going to wait for.

900 bucks for tuning electronics and software (that I cant even find a damn screenshot of) is totally ridiculous.

Well, i would not hold your breath. As said already above, these are not honda's. The pcm's in these cars are very complex. Also a motec starts around 5g.

 

[Fast351]

I'm trying to remember how many tables are in one of these new ECUs, but I seem to remember something on the order of 400. Clearly this is beyond the capability of all but the most advanced backyard mechanic. That leaves the tuner shops as the primary customer. So nationwide, there are what, maybe a couple thousand shops? That's a pretty small market.

For the amount of engineering time it takes to crack the code for each individual computer, and the time it takes to code the software to match, frankly I'm surprised it's not more expensive. I own a company that sells software to an industry with a similar market size and a similar up front cost of engineering, and I can tell you there is not a single product in our lineup that's under $10K.