Comprehensive IC Water Pump/System Test Data

[Department Of Boost]

Intercooler Water Pump Flow Data
A Comprehensive Test​

Alrighty ladies and germs. I think it’s safe to say this is the most comprehensive IC water pump test ever done.

It’s pretty clear that there is no such thing as “The Best Pump”. What you want to use will depend on your specific combo, your future plans and your budget.

After all of this testing combined with how we are seeing certain flow numbers perform in real life I’m confident in saying that you can’t have too much water flow. We’ve been testing our S550 at 19gpm a lot this season. It works incredibly well, way better than anything we have ever seen. But it is by no means anywhere near enough to absorb/reject all the heat coming from the blower. So 19gpm is still not getting to the “holy grail” which is a zero IAT rise under boost. So if you’re thinking “10gpm is good enough for me”. Think again. You want everything you can get. End of story. And right now the most we have been able to get is 27gpm.

Don’t forget water flow is paramount. You can have the largest heat exchanger in the world. But if you don’t move the water in/out of the IC fast enough you will have high IAT’s. It’s as simple as that.

We just hooked up with Stewart who makes the pump that Lingenfelter hot rods and then sells under their own name. Stewart is now hot rodding the pumps and selling them themselves (I’m sure Lingenfelter is thrilled) for get this…..$100 less ($450). I’m setting up as a Stewart dealer right now so I will be selling them direct. Right now I’ll call them the Department Of Boost Super Pump because well, they’re super and I don’t have any better ideas. I’ll probably have a group buy going on these soon so save you pennies.

Now For The Data

I didn’t include all of my test data, just the stuff that is relevant to you the guy on the ground. I have a lot more data on different combo’s, line sizes, etc. But none of that is really applicable to you. It just gives me a better idea of what works and doesn’t when looking at the big picture. It also allows me to make educated guesses about other combo’s not tested.

I have two main portions of test data. The GT500 IC/.75” line size date and the .75” IC /.75” line size data. This is what will be applicable to most of you. But it won’t be spot on. Most blowers don’t have a true .75” IC inlet/outlet aside from our GT450. On the flip side not many blowers have a IC that is as restrictive as the GT500 IC is (.55”). So to figure out how your system will perform will take a little guess work. You can take your IC fittings ID and see where it sits between .55” (GT500 IC) and .75” (GT450) and get a pretty good guess where you will sit. For example, if your IC fittings have a ID of .65” (half way between the GT500 IC and the .75” IC) you will flow a number roughly half way between the GT500 and .75” results.

Example:

You have 5/8” (.625) IC fittings. You take the GT500 IC number for the 13’ GT500 pump (8.5) and the .75” IC with the same pump (10.25). Half way between those numbers is .65”, which is really close to .625” and this is fuzzy math so you end up with 9.375gpm. You could build an equation if you want to get down to brass tacks. But this is fuzzy math anyway. Why kill yourself?

Upgraded System Options

We are working on, and will have done soon, upgraded intercooler system packages for the S197. They really are built around the use of our GT550, R-Spec, GT500 manifolds and our GT500 IC upgrade kit that are all based around 1.25” passages. The IC system kits (HE, degas tank, pump, hoses, etc) work great on cars that have “small” IC’s though. Bigger lines mean less resistance, less resistance means more flow, more flow equals lower IAT’s. Additionally the HE’s are MASSIVE:

-Stage I Heat Exchanger – Core frontal area 360sq in. Core volume 540cu in. Can be used with 16” fan.

The Stage I has the largest frontal area of any HE out there (25% more). And frontal area is good. Really good. It also allows the use of a 16” fan which pushes a whole lot more air than two 10” fans do. This will be the “go to” stage for most people. It has a big face, it can use a fan and it doesn’t get its core volume by making it really thick. The core is only 1.5” thick. That makes it easier for the air to get though (opposed to spilling around the sides). We have used this design on our 2010 GT shop car and 2015 GT shop car. They work great!

And most importantly they are set up for 1.25” fittings (you can go smaller though). If you want big water flow you need that fitting size. No other HE is even close. The biggest have .75” fittings.

-Stage II Heat Exchenger - Core frontal area 360sq in. Core volume 1080cu in. Can’t use a fan.

The Stage II has the same frontal area as the Stage I. The only difference is that it’s “double thick”. This big bastard will barely fit and you can’t run a fan. It’s so thick that you really want to “fence” it in also so it drives as much air though the core as possible. This is a no holds barred HE. We don’t recommend it for builds that aren’t toward the crazy end of the spectrum. Depending on interest we may not even make them.

The Point???

What is my point? It’s this. Your goals should determine what pump you use. For example:

If you are currently running your blower with an as delivered IC system you will want to upgrade some or all of it at some point. None of them do a very good job with IAT’s out of the box. How you upgrade it and what components you chose are going to be based on where you want to end up.

If you simply want to put a off the shelf big HE and pump on then call it quits your best bet is to run a 13’ GT500 HE and a 13’ GT500 water pump. That will get you a really big HE and the most cost effective pump for that combo. It will work much better than what you have and it will not break the bank. But, if you think you will ever upgrade it’s not the best choice.

If you go with the 13’ GT500 HE (or any other for that matter) there is an argument for using the DOB Super Pump. For starters it will push more water (about 20%). Secondly if in the future you upgrade to the DOB IC System the DOB pump will “step up” to the task where the 13’ GT500 pump won’t. The DOB IC System/Pump will get you about 17gpm (half way between the GT500 and .75” IC numbers). The DOB IC System/13’ GT500 pump will get you about 10.75gpm. If you think you will ever “go big” the DOB Super Pump is the way to go. It only costs $150 more and it will “grow”. And you will always be able to sell the 13’ GT500 HE for you what you paid for it.

So think about what you will be doing in the long run and choose accordingly.

Chart Key

-DOB Super pump = Stewart/Lingenfelter

-Turbo Pump = Davies Craig EWP150

-55gpm = Meziere 55gpm

-20gpm = Meziere 20gpm

-13' GT500 Pump = 13' GT500 Pump

-Bosch = 07-12' GT500 and just about every blower kit out there's pump

-Bosch/Bosch outlet to inlet = Two Bosch pump run in series. One directly feeding the next.

-Bosch/Bosch 180deg = Two Bosch pumps run in series on opposite sides of the system (not feeding each other). One before IC, one before HE.

>>>Coming Soon<<<

Mathematical Modeling Showing The Effects Of Water Flow On Intake Air Temps​

 

[Department Of Boost]

Pump sold

 

[travelers]

That's some good info. Thanks. I'm looking to upgrade my setup soon.

 

[Wes06]

I was discussing your research into IC systems with a guy at work and told him the setup i have i roughly 6gpm, and you guys are pushing a system with potential for 27gpm. He kept bringing up what about pushing it through the HE to fast and just circulating hot water.

I told him every step you guys made from 6gpm up you just kept seeing lower and lower IAT's.

Im sure theres a point where another GPM will do nothing if not slight increase due to going to fast, but we havent found it yet

 

[Department Of Boost]

I was discussing your research into IC systems with a guy at work and told him the setup i have i roughly 6gpm, and you guys are pushing a system with potential for 27gpm. He kept bringing up what about pushing it through the HE to fast and just circulating hot water.

I told him every step you guys made from 6gpm up you just kept seeing lower and lower IAT's.

Im sure theres a point where another GPM will do nothing if not slight increase due to going to fast, but we havent found it yet

I want to get some models from that thermal engineer that was posting in the 13 GT500 HE thread. It looks like he is able to prove it out.

I can "see in my head" why you can't move the water too fast but I can't verbalize it.

I can absolutely verbalize why you can't move it through the IC too fast. temperature differential is what accounts for heat transfer. so the colder the water in the IC the better. The cooler it is the faster it will transfer heat out.

Then of course comes the HE. Obviously if you were to have a HE that was the same size as the IC the HE wouldn't be able to shed the heat that the IC is picking up because heat transfers to air slower. I suppose in a perfect world you would figure out the difference in rate of change and then build a HE big enough. I may even be able to figure that out. That said, my theory is the more HE the better. Just fill up all the room and run with it.

Another thing that most people don't factor in is that unlike a engine cooling system the IC is not getting pounded with max heat all the time. Only when you're at WOT. So the system can 'recover" between hits. What you really need is enough cool water to get you through your run(s) and move it through the IC fast enough. The secondary goal is for the HE to shed heat fast enough to catch back up.

So far faster water flow and more HE has not let us down.

 

[Wes06]

Yea im looking forward to the engineering math's for all this shit your coming up with

Yea if HE and IC were same size it would get heat soaked quickly and not work well.

good news is we can fit a nice sized HE on the front of our cars

I did tell him about the dual HE setup with one in the trunk behind a bulkhead and one in the front, thought it was neat. I think a larger set could be fit and sealed to the wider parts of the trunk and let out the back

 

[Department Of Boost]

I did tell him about the dual HE setup with one in the trunk behind a bulkhead and one in the front, thought it was neat. I think a larger set could be fit and sealed to the wider parts of the trunk and let out the back

Oh yeah, if I had set out to go completely bonkers I could have fit a much larger HE in the trunk. I don't know what the limits of the NACA ducts are, the limits of the low pressure zone behind the trunk, etc are though. I had that HE on the shelf too. And this way I can still sorta use the trunk. Well I can get to the battery and I have a tool bag in the spare tire well.

Like everything if I did it again it would be different.

 

[Pentalab]

Another thing that most people don't factor in is that unlike a engine cooling system the IC is not getting pounded with max heat all the time. Only when you're at WOT. So the system can 'recover" between hits. What you really need is enough cool water to get you through your run(s) and move it through the IC fast enough. The secondary goal is for the HE to shed heat fast enough to catch back up.

So far faster water flow and more HE has not let us down.

The acid test with any of these improved configs, would be on a 20-30min road course session..on a 80-100F day. How many secs of each lap are at WOT ? Is there enough time for the system to recover ? That's the problem with the killer chiller, it won't recover fast enough, well that and the AC pump is off during WOT. For road course purposes, perhaps lowering the boost a bunch would go a long way for overall consistent results.

 

[eighty6gt]

The 2013 gt500 pump moved water so quickly through my heat exchanger that I got cavitation/erosion in the end tanks, and they began to leak.


Just kidding.

Thanks for doing all of this testing. I'm glad to see the pump I have works very well, agrees with what I've seen.

As for recovery, it takes my system a long time. Once the reservoir tank is hot, I need some cruising at speed to chill things back down. Creeping around in traffic everything under the hood is just smoking. I'm looking at cowl hoods and the FRPP fan.

 

[Pentalab]

The 2013 gt500 pump moved water so quickly through my heat exchanger that I got cavitation/erosion in the end tanks, and they began to leak.


Just kidding.

Thanks for doing all of this testing. I'm glad to see the pump I have works very well, agrees with what I've seen.

As for recovery, it takes my system a long time. Once the reservoir tank is hot, I need some cruising at speed to chill things back down. Creeping around in traffic everything under the hood is just smoking. I'm looking at cowl hoods and the FRPP fan.

Ok, with 20-26 gpm, will cavitation / erosion be a problem, or is it a non-issue?

How much rwhp do you think you have these days? Which pulley do you have on the TVS-1900 ? Which HE + de-gas are you using ? How much boost ?

 

[pacettr]

Remind me the approx difference between the GT500 HE and the Saleen Extreme?

 

[Fullboogie]

The engineers love to chime in and throw out the old "don't move the water too fast!" theory. I'm sure the math says that's true at some threshold for a given system, but what is that threshold in the system DOB is testing? 1,000 gpm? 500? 100? DOB's testing clearly proves that that threshold has not been reached, and in fact I don't know of any test that indicates that the threshold has been reached. So I don't know why this always comes up, other than an engineer taking an opportunity to mouth off.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong - has there ever been a test performed on our (or any automotive) H/E circuit that showed "moving too much water" through the circuit showed increasing temperatures as compared to a lower gpm test?

 

[eighty6gt]

Not for any system. I used to work with water cooling for electronic arc furnaces that melted 100-150 tons of metal at a time.

 

[eighty6gt]

Ok, with 20-26 gpm, will cavitation / erosion be a problem, or is it a non-issue?

How much rwhp do you think you have these days? Which pulley do you have on the TVS-1900 ? Which HE + de-gas are you using ? How much boost ?

Probably 425 this morning I was seeing 9.5 psi. 82mm. Large GT500 degas, Roush gigantic front face HE, 19x21" or whatever.

I'm very happy with this setup and the cooling I have, only when it's 35C do I notice the car get a bit warm, still undecided as to what pulley I will use in the future. Might not go much smaller. I am going to open up the exhaust and install some baby cams to get boost down by a pound or two.

 

[Pentalab]

Probably 425 this morning I was seeing 9.5 psi. 82mm. Large GT500 degas, Roush gigantic front face HE, 19x21" or whatever.

I'm very happy with this setup and the cooling I have, only when it's 35C do I notice the car get a bit warm, still undecided as to what pulley I will use in the future. Might not go much smaller. I am going to open up the exhaust and install some baby cams to get boost down by a pound or two.

Did you see any drop in iat's, while either cruising, or under boost at wot, when you swapped from Bosch pump to 13/14 GT-500 pump ? (assuming same boost, same pulley, same tune, same roush HE, etc).

Looking for an apples to apples comparison here, not swapping to bigger IC pump and simultaneously reducing blower pulley. It would have to be similar outside ambient temps, same water-glycol mix, etc.

 

[eighty6gt]

I changed to the VMP blower from the M90 at the same time I changed my heat exchanger and changed out the bosch pump. Boost levels are similar. IAT's are similar.

My case is terrible for science. I'm going to go ahead and say that major changes are required to move IAT's more than a few degrees, this has been borne out reading people's experiences on for instance svt perf, etc... where major coin is spent for very little change in IAT. Looking at the efficiency range that the supercharger I'm using operates, I suspect that lowering boost is going to make more of a difference - ported heads, cams, exhaust changes, etc...

 

[Department Of Boost]

Roush gigantic front face HE, 19x21" or whatever.

This is probably why your recovery sucks. I've only seen pictures but I don't think that HE has much capacity. How thick are the tubes (core)?

 

[Department Of Boost]

Remind me the approx difference between the GT500 HE and the Saleen Extreme?

What are the core dimensions on the Saleen HE? I've never had one in my hands.

 

[Department Of Boost]

The engineers love to chime in and throw out the old "don't move the water too fast!" theory. I'm sure the math says that's true at some threshold for a given system, but what is that threshold in the system DOB is testing? 1,000 gpm? 500? 100? DOB's testing clearly proves that that threshold has not been reached, and in fact I don't know of any test that indicates that the threshold has been reached. So I don't know why this always comes up, other than an engineer taking an opportunity to mouth off.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong - has there ever been a test performed on our (or any automotive) H/E circuit that showed "moving too much water" through the circuit showed increasing temperatures as compared to a lower gpm test?

No. And the thermal engineer that is posting in the 13 GT500 HE thread had a good explanation why you can't move it too fast. He knows his stuff. We're going to collaborate on a article that explains the dynamics of the systems and what works. He is going to be providing the hard science/math. I'm looking forward to it.

 

[pacettr]

What are the core dimensions on the Saleen HE? I've never had one in my hands.

34 x 7 x 2 1/8" IF MY QUICK RESEARCH IS ACCURATE.



Sorry for yelling.